Support » Plugin: Gutenberg » Time for a WordPress fork?

  • Edited to add: I’ve now spent a very large amount of time with Gutenberg and created the 1,000th issue (at the time of writing) on the github repo. Conservatively I think it’s going to take around a days work per customer to teach them how to use this new system.

    Charged out at our daily rate, you’re talking a conservative cost of £40,000 which we won’t be able to bill to our customers as this is “our” change. Multiply this out across the ecosystem and the costs of Gutenberg to business are astronomical. Let’s be conservative and say there are 20,000 other businesses in our situation.

    Gutenberg is costing businesses £800,000,000. This is DISGRACEFUL. This is PURELY support costs.

    We have invested hundreds (more like thousands) of man hours into making WordPress work just the way we like it and have reached a point where we can design and build bespoke websites in a matter of hours with very powerful features. We’ve baked all of this in using the hooks, actions and extreme amounts of customisation that we’ve all come to love at the core of the of WordPress.

    Having looked at Gutenberg, the issues posted on Github, the reviews on here and the seemingly laissez-faire approach by the Gutenberg team towards the push back by the community I can only hope that a WordPress fork appears at 4.9. We have to upgrade WordPress to keep up with security issues, but this force feeding of Gutenberg is like the Windows 10 saga all over again – forcing changes that nobody wants.

    Gutenberg is bringing in so many breaking changes to WordPress I can only imagine the cost to businesses across the globe. I wouldn’t be surprised if it is in the tens of millions in lost revenue.

    Please please please don’t merge this into core. Listen to your users – make it a plugin, turn it on by default if you must, but please make it optional.

    • This topic was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by Scott Bowler. Reason: More clarity
    • This topic was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by Scott Bowler. Reason: spacing
    • This topic was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by Scott Bowler.
Viewing 10 replies - 1 through 10 (of 10 total)
  • Is there a working group for such a fork? Why haven’t some of the power users taken a lead in forking?

    Moderator Marius L. J.

    (@clorith)

    Hi there.

    Firstly, thank you for taking the time to leave a review, unfortunately I don’t see you providing any of your experiences with Gutenberg here, merely a bog standard “I don’t like it”.

    So, why don’t you like it? And what changes do you view as breaking at this time?
    Is there anything Gutenberg brings to the table that you do like and are excited for?

    I’ll also drop a note that we do have the Classic Editor plugin, for those that want a little bit more time to prepare once 5.0 is released, as well as Gutenberg Ramp which lets you enable it per post type (or by any metric you chose if you’re a developer and want to really get into things). These are two tools that are available to give you time to assess the situation once WordPress 5.0 is released.

    (Windows 10 was a good release though, and it one of the better releases they’ve had in recent times 🙂 ).

    Thread Starter Scott Bowler

    (@scottybowl2)

    As a very basic example of breaking changes, Gutenberg doesn’t support disabling auto p via a hook.

    I don’t want to take this off topic, but the fact you think Windows 10 was a good release sums up Gutenberg succinctly.

    On a side note, there is a very clear formula to replies to negative gutenberg reviews “{{thank you}} {{why don’t you like gutenberg even though your review says exactly why}} {{we are going to continue despite your feedback, but we’ll veil this by asking what you like about gutenberg}} {{ps by the way you can slow your installation down by having gutenberg in core but add more bloat by adding a plugin to disable it}}

    It’s time to take your heads out the sand and realise that you are wrong. Your egos are going to kill WordPress.

    Thread Starter Scott Bowler

    (@scottybowl2)

    One last comment – can you not see the elephant in the room? Two (apparently popular) plugins exist to delay or disable Gutenberg, which you are promoting as a viable solution. This by itself is a major red flag – people have invested time and money to counter your actions.

    The state of denial shown in all these threads is extraordinary.

    Please respond to my suggestion of making this a default plugin instead of core.

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 10 months ago by Scott Bowler.
    • This reply was modified 3 years, 10 months ago by Scott Bowler.
    Moderator Marius L. J.

    (@clorith)

    So, wpautop is actually not used by Gutenberg blocks, since the editor properly handles paragraph separation (due to them being split into blocks now), the call to wpautop was a solution to a “problem” where the classic editor uses linebreaks, and a paragraph to it was merely two linebreaks in a row.

    I’m not sure if that answers, or solves, your question, but it at least explains why we don’t look for the filter so it can be disabled. You can see the issue at https://github.com/WordPress/gutenberg/issues/3900 if you’re curious about it, as it covers most of this.

    You are correct, many of our answers do have the same format, that is because a lot of the mare negative, we want to try and find something positive in all of them (dealing with negativity all day is quite taxing on us, as we are all volunteers). I’m sorry to hear you don’t approve of this, but that’s what we do to get by.

    We provide the fallbacks as a service, because we understand that not everyone may be ready by the time we roll things out fully. The options are there for the minority that need them, and we have faith that users will take to the new editing experience instead.

    It will be in core, we provide opt-out alternatives for those that are not ready yet, but over time we believe many users will remove the opt-out choices. We are doing this because if we make it opt-in, as a stand alone plugin, no other themes or plugins would care to take advantage of the benefits it brings with it. Our approach is to develop for the majority, and the majority of users are non-techy users that we hope will enjoy the control Gutenberg provides them. We may still see refinements moving forwards, that’s not be expected, because we need more regular user input. Because of it’s nature it’s currently only got the more engaged community testing and giving feedback, many of whom are not considered to be in the majority.

    Marius L. J. (@clorith) wrote:
    Our approach is to develop for the majority, and the majority of users are non-techy users that we hope will enjoy the control Gutenberg provides them. We may still see refinements moving forwards, that’s not be expected, because we need more regular user input. Because of it’s nature it’s currently only got the more engaged community testing and giving feedback, many of whom are not considered to be in the majority.

    I need clarification on this. Do you mean that the engaged community testing Gutenberg is not considered the audience you are developing for?

    So, I give you my opinion, but because I am “engaged” and interested in what you are doing, you do not value it? Do you really know if I am techy or not, or if am relaying the concerns of my customers and user base?

    I hate to ask you this, but I want to make sure I understand what you mean by that.

    Moderator Marius L. J.

    (@clorith)

    I’m going to use the “this is not my first language” card here, sorry about that, but I think what I’m about to write out may not convey exactly as I’d like. I hope it does and have worked hard to try and make it that way, but words are strange things and used on the internet may not always come out as you’d hoped. If something is unclear I do apologize and let me know, I’ll see if I can find ways to refine it.

    So what I am saying isn’t that the input from the already engaged community is less important or ignored. I was trying to convey that the ones already testing are those whom are likely to have strong opinions on the platform (which is good!). And we are listening to the feedback, and have implemented changes based on what we hear here.

    Where the majority/minority thing comes into play is the call to keep Gutenberg out of WordPress. With millions upon millions of sites and users, only about 20 000 sites are testing Gutenberg at this time, even fewer leave feedback (this should increase in the coming weeks hopefully). It’s all those that are so far unfamiliar with the changes that are coming, and those that are looking for a simpler approach that we hope to help.

    We’re the engaged group, we are also able to adapt to these changes. It will take a little bit of back and forth, because the flows are so different, but after some repeated use it felt much more natural than the classic editor. That’s me as a user, but I’m also a developer, and from a developer point of view, I struggled at first, there was confusion, and frustration and a lack of clear messages. Most (if not all) of that has since been cleared up, and I now swoon for Gutenberg’s simplicity. Converting shortcodes to blocks makes them much easier to use, I don’t have to hand hold or help anyone with how the special in-content features I created work or what they look like. I could do this previously, with WPViews (for those that are developers of us), but that’s hardly used by anyone in the wider community. Now we’re setting the standard for easy to use across the board and it makes me super excited.

    Sorry to butt in.

    Sorry @clorith, but I have to agree with @scottybowl2. This Gutenberg shouldn’t merge into core but instead created as an optional plugin. Why? Let me ask you a question beforehand. Did you ever try Gutenberg compatibility with the most plugins exist in the WordPress directory? I bet you haven’t yet.

    Now please answer my questions…

    1. Let’s take Shortcodes Ultimate as an example. What will happen to this plugin after Gutenberg implemented? Can we still use it in Gutenberg editor since many people use this plugin?

    2. Some people create custom media button in their visual editor for various purpose. Will this media buttons still work after Gutenberg implemented?

    3. I understand we can create a shortcode block and save it. But it still creates a new block. Why?

    On current visual editor, we can type “Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit” then click on media button to insert shortcode and it will appear like below.

    Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit[shortcode]

    Unfortunately with Gutenberg, after you type “Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit” then click on shortcode block, it will appear like below.

    Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit

    [shortcode]

    You can type shortcode on the paragraph block, but if a user have A LOT of shortcodes, then how can they remember all of it? Just write somewhere then copy + paste?

    I think Matt totally forget that WordPress is open source although he is one of the creators. Since many people hate this idea, maybe all of us should sign a petition to stop this silly Gutenberg from merge into the core.

    paragraph separation (due to them being split into blocks now)

    Paragraphs being spit up into their own blocks is one of the biggest pain points for content editing in Gutenberg. For short paragraphs, all of those blocks (with their rectangles and tool bars) clutter up the entry area make editing content much more difficult.

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 10 months ago by markciotola.
    Moderator Marius L. J.

    (@clorith)

    There’s too many voices in here now, this was one users review.

    If anyone wishes to post their own review, or open a support topic, we’ll be happy to provide responses and discussions there, but this review is being closed as it is derailing.

    The original review creator may still edit their review at their own leisure if they so wish at any point.

Viewing 10 replies - 1 through 10 (of 10 total)
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