• Hi,

    I am giving the Kadence plugin 3 stars because I see the intentions are good. What lets it down is Gutenberg itself. After testing it thoroughly along with other block plugins I have come away frustrated for the following reasons.

    The bugginess of Gutenberg is evident where it throws up a block asking if you want to restore or convert to a HTML block, only to produce something that is not what you started with. I am testing on a clean install and notice this error under a number of circumstances, navigating between viewing the front end page and back to the editing dashboard. I also noticed this on changing between several Gutenberg compatible themes. Gutenberg should be more robust than this considering that it is supposed to be the solution to consistency between themes.

    Next on the list is finding and targeting each element on the page, layout and content blocks. This is a game of whack’a’mole. Using the controls to manipulate layout, spacing and sizing is also haphazard with unexpected results.

    All of this is a shame as the concept of Gutenberg has some merit and it has seen some good additions and improvements is recent updates. But, it keeps missing the obvious with the above complaints.

    On top of this, Gutenberg leaves out something fundamental that should have been addressed years ago, even with the current editor. I refer to the code view. Having warmed to the fact that you can, in Gutenberg, target the HTML of each individual block it is disappointing that what is presented is not usable, not human readable. What we get is a mess of unformatted html, to a degree minified. As fundamental as this is to web design and development we should have at least some form of IDE like environment for users to work in, one that offers colour coded syntax highlighting and proper nested indenting. If Froala editor or Code Pen can do it then so should WordPress. We recently saw the introduction of code mirror in WordPress. It needs to be developed further and pushed into more corners other than the HTML block. This would resolve the big mystery meat of jumbled code intermixed with comment tags delineating blocks.

    Coming to WordPress and seeing all this I not only wonder about Gutenberg but WordPress itself and am surprised that many in the community both using the platform and developing for it have accept this without shouting blue murder.

    • This topic was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by irishetcher.
Viewing 6 replies - 1 through 6 (of 6 total)
  • Plugin Contributor Ben Ritner – Kadence WP

    (@britner)

    Thanks for your review of Gutenberg. If you haven’t already you can post on the Gutenberg plugin itself as this may be something the Gutenberg team may like to address: https://wordpress.org/plugins/gutenberg/#reviews

    I would love to test out the issue you are having where Gutenberg is asking if you want to convert the block. You mentioned it happened under a number of circumstances. Is there one that you can send me step by step so I can recreate? For example which block, what did you edit, then when you clicked back or changed from what theme to what theme. If you could get me those details I would be more then happy to troubleshoot and perhaps offer some information to the people developing Gutenberg on the Gutenberg GitHub.

    I agree navigating through blocks inside of blocks can be tricky. I’ve seen some suggestions for how to fix on Github, one would add in a type of breadcrumb that could be a possible solution to making it easier. We’ll see if they push this live. I know elementor has a similar issue when trying to select columns and they use the right click feature to make it easier to choose a column instead of the element itself.

    Do you have a preferred page builder or editor that you like?

    Best of luck!

    Thread Starter irishetcher

    (@irishetcher)

    I have. Sent plenty of feedback to the Gutenberg team, like many others, only to have it fall on deaf ears.

    Some of my criticisms:

    ____

    The whole Classic Editor plugin approach is very clumsy and unnecessary considering that Gutenberg is in effect just a react override of the current editor, much like enabling a builder plugin might work. The only difference is that Gutenberg takes over the whole backend interface.

    Fom my understanding all the workings of the current editor will be extant in WordPress 5 with Gutenberg activated as the de-facto default editor. It is feasible therefore that only new installs would activate Gutenberg with a switch in writing settings to trigger a Gutenberg -> true/false filter.

    There is in fact a filter that can be dropped into the functions.php file of a theme that prevents Gutenberg from being active on all posts. At the moment the folks behind Gutenberg have stated that that filter will get a name change once Gutenberg is folded into core. To date that name change has not occurred and no guarantee that there will even be a name change. This suggests an element of control in the Gutenberg camp. Having a concrete filter would make it feasible for theme vendor to use it saving their users being dropped into Gutenberg.

    I have been using and testing Gutenberg for a while now and some plugin developers have gone to great efforts to make blocks that potentially could be very useful. What lets them down is Gutenberg itself. The bugginess of the configurations, especially if you use it on a theme that wasn’t built for Gutenberg suggests that a complete separation of only using Gutenberg on new builds with Gutenberg specific themes and plugins is the only route.

    I use Divi for work and this make Gutenberg redundant for me. But I do see a better built Gutenberg being a good starting point for those new to WordPress, web design and development. My understanding is that Gutenberg was supposed to be unifying in that it would provide a common foundation for content and make changing theme less painful. In many respect it does none of this because it has gone in the opposite direction of layout towards micromanaging more granular elements.

    And there are many other issues that need to be resolved like where do all the custom fields go if metaboxes are an after thought. There is a all in blocks solution which potentially could work down the road. Providing a mechanism to only have one classic block for basic content creation and/or a de-block mechanism to take everything back to a singe classic block are two other important pr-requisits to making Gutenberg more usable.

    The biggie though is something that Gutenberg share with the current editor and that is the lack of a proper code view. its a big bug bear for me and always has been. I like the fact that in Gutenberg you can target the html in each block. The big let down is that it is often not human readable. It needs to be more like an IDE as a work environment with colour syntax highlighting, proper formatting with nested indentations and perhaps code completions and code folding. We see how this achievable with Froala editor and Code Pen. Recently WordPress introduced Code MIrror and what we need is further development of this and for it to be used in far more places other than the HTML block. This would go some way to making working with blocks and how it handles delineation with comment tags more useable and palatable.

    _____

    On the bugginess and block disintegration, to be honest I have been hammering Gutenberg switching between themes etc… I wouldn’t be too worried at this stage as a lot of these issues should be ironed out with time. I am sure that Gutenberg will become more robust. In the meantime…they shouldn’t make it default and I don’t mean this in a bad way. There is always a place to push out new software to make it grow, take feedback and improve. We had this when OS X replaced the older mac operating system. it took up to five years for Apple to get the new operating system mature enough to be adopted by most users.

    A few quick things on the interface in you block settings. You have the three device (desktop, Tablet, Mobile) selectors a the top. I would expect that when clicking these would animate the content down to reflect previews for those breakpoints. Maybe that’s something that is coming in phase two for the customiser in Gutenberg? I am not sure if you are familiar with Divi. In the visual builder on the front end in the settings panels, each section operates like an accordion, only the settings you are working on are open, all others are closed. It affords a less busy workspace and makes it easier to find what you are looking for. Again, probably something for Gutenberg to get right.

    Plugin Contributor Ben Ritner – Kadence WP

    (@britner)

    Hey,
    Thanks for posting.

    I am not always up to date on all the different page builders and their settings although I have used divi. Do any offer the IDE code editing you want inside WordPress?

    Yes I do believe that previews of tablet and mobile device sizes will be possible once it’s integrated with the customizer. That is a feature I also look forward to supporting with the row block and others.

    The accordion idea is interesting. I’ll have to look around to see if the Gutenberg team is considering this as an option. Could be a nice option to turn on when a user wanted that.

    I wanted to follow up because I really would like to test the issue you wrote that you are having. Before you mentioned that blocks would break if you switched themes or viewed on the front end then the back end. Gutenberg was asking if you want to convert the block. Is there one circumstance that you can send me step by step so I can recreate? For example which block, what did you edit, then when you clicked back or changed from what theme to what theme. If you could get me those details I would be more then happy to troubleshoot. If that is happening with the blocks I built I want to fix it.

    Otherwise, and because I just want to be clear, is there anything that I can improve inside this plugin that would improve your rating of this plugin? After reading through what you’ve written here I haven’t quite figured out why you rated this 3 stars or what improvements I can make.

    Thanks!

    Thread Starter irishetcher

    (@irishetcher)

    I upped the star rating to 4. I may have been skewed by my impressions of Gutenberg, which will remain at zero(1 star) till they get things right.

    None of the builders can have IDE code editing as far as I know because they depend on TinyMCE/core implementing. There are exceptions. In Gutenberg it looks like the HTML block uses code mirror. Likewise Divi uses it in the code module.

    Behind the scenes Gutenberg relies a lot on TinyMCE which is a variant of the full blown version of what Tiny provides as a subscription. Generally TinyMCE does not have a code view at all. For this additional feature you need to subscribe to anther pricey plugin. It is not available to WordPress user either and from what I can see is possibly not as good as code mirror. The text tab for code view in the current backend editor is a WordPress implementation. It is a bit blurred in terms of what TinyMCE is and how much of it we get in WordPress which is obviously not the totality, seeing as we as the end user pay nothing for it. The TinyMCE Advanced plugin give us extra functionality all right.

    There is in depth co-operation between Tiny and the Gutenberg team, the vested interest reflecting the 30% + share of the web market that WordPress has. If you look at the Froala editor it has a fairly decent code view option and with full screen is useful. Again though if you want full functionality, you need to pay big bucks. The free version is not much use if you want to code. I am not sure what hurdles are involved in attaching a proper code editor to the Gutenberg editor. It may be a bridge to far but I would like to think that at least somebody would try.

    On the overall philosophy of Gutenberg. I think the idea to change and what it could do is very interesting and much needed. I just think that it has gone down a dead end now in how it focused on the granular level of elements of paragraphs, images and headers to the detriment of the layout elements. The under developed column module speaks volumes.

    I would have thought that providing the fundamentals of layout in the form of sections/rows/columns and/or flex etc. should have been a priority affording a good foundation for switching themes without unexpected results. On this foundation would be the basics of adjustable paddings and margins for spacing and then, on top of this a very good API for page builders to add all their own bells and whistles and custom interfaces. This would also cater for single layout block instances.

    This basic Gutenberg/WordPress install would cover enough for most people to comfortably build a site without too much stress but instead we have issues targeting all the block elements and unexpected bugs. What I find ironic is that we are encouraged to avoid the mystery meat of shortcodes while, in its current guise, Gutenberg is the biggest piece of mystery meat I have seen in a while in terms of software for general consumption.

    We also have talk of a fork, but this is as bonkers as the notion of Brexit, though at this stage I am not sure which is more bonkers. We really need to hope that the Gutenberg design can be resolved to work properly.

    On testing. The errors I observed were not tied to any one block and I did experience them prior to testing Kadence. I will test a bit more over the next few weeks and let you know if I spot anything in particular.

    Yeah. Gutenberg is HORRIBLE. I had a fab theme that ALREADY DID what Gutenberg is “supposed” to do (but doesn’t.) Gutenberg totally screwed up my site (got the “white screen of death” when trying to remove it.) That meant I had to spend $170 in support fees to get Gutenberg removed from 5 websites. Who forced this Gutenberg-garbage on us? Because they owe me some bucks!!!

    Just to inform others users if the stats I look are up to date, 22% of WordPress sites are running on the latest and of those more than 6 million have install a classic editor or similar plugins.
    I hope the organization will not make like Microsoft and continue to push on this harder and harder.

    https://www.codeinwp.com/blog/wordpress-statistics/

Viewing 6 replies - 1 through 6 (of 6 total)

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