Title: Rant about attitudes Last modified: February 7, 2017 --- # Rant about attitudes * [jonimueller](https://wordpress.org/support/users/jonimueller/) * (@jonimueller) * [21 years, 9 months ago](https://wordpress.org/support/topic/rant-about-attitudes/) * I’m getting really sick and tired of being chastised (it’s really worse, but I’m just being nice because that’s the mood I’m in) for using “some unholy combination of tables and divs” on my site. I’m tired of people picking my site apart because it uses tables. It uses tables because of the (unholy) [float bugs rampant in IE](http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer.html) and because I want IE uses to see my site, despite the fact that I’ve switched for the time being to a gecko browser. Is that so wrong? Yeesh. I think some people here spend more time dissecting other people’s sites (when they weren’t asked to do so) than they do actually HELPING people use WordPress. Whether the person who is using WP has tables in his/her layout or not. What difference does it make? If it validates, then so what? Tables will be here for a long time. And so will IE, apparently. So unless the people doing the bellyaching want to redesign my site GRATIS, they can keep quiet about matters I’ve not asked about and HELP ME with matters I have asked about. Okay, I feel better now. Viewing 15 replies - 1 through 15 (of 16 total) 1 [2](https://wordpress.org/support/topic/rant-about-attitudes/page/2/?output_format=md) [→](https://wordpress.org/support/topic/rant-about-attitudes/page/2/?output_format=md) * Anonymous * [21 years, 9 months ago](https://wordpress.org/support/topic/rant-about-attitudes/#post-84951) * Part of it, I think, is that being standards obsessed/savvy and being in the main recreational web fiddlers a lot of us aren’t much help with table based designs. There are a lot of good resources out there though for table and quirky designs. I know you’re not pointing at quiet-me, but the only advice I have is on things that should work rather then do, and in my haste to be helpful I have often given advice of little use to people designing pages intended for web general release. Be forgiving, most people her are helpful first and opinionated after, otherwise they wouldn’t spend so much time scanning this forum and leaping to reply. * [Guvner](https://wordpress.org/support/users/guvner/) * (@guvner) * [21 years, 9 months ago](https://wordpress.org/support/topic/rant-about-attitudes/#post-84952) * Where was my cookie? (Should have worked) * [stopwpcensorship](https://wordpress.org/support/users/stopwpcensorship/) * (@stopwpcensorship) * [21 years, 9 months ago](https://wordpress.org/support/topic/rant-about-attitudes/#post-84965) * Yeah, there are some ‘regulars’ who like to throw their weight around in spite of not having any official moderator powers, and the actual admin can’t seem to keep them in check. I’m thinking of starting an alternative forum that would help EVERYONE, not just standards obsessives and suck-ups. * [Root](https://wordpress.org/support/users/root/) * (@root) * [21 years, 9 months ago](https://wordpress.org/support/topic/rant-about-attitudes/#post-84981) * I do not know if this a wierd coincidence or just an indication of the type of mind set at work but the same people who turn up here with their table based layouts ranting about their rights are quite often the same people who have borked layouts, invalid code, are passing off other peoples copy righted work, have no idea how the GPL works, demand links, or as this poster did when they got started; including copy righted photos in their themes. Those same people are often impervious to the fact that some very sophisticated web designers post on this forum but just cant be bothered to argue with their teenagers attitudes. Furthermore dealing with this stuff is really alienating a lot of people who do care, who are qualified who help, and wouldother wise be willing to do so. Some of you people have got no idea of the the incalculable harm you are doing. * [scooterphish](https://wordpress.org/support/users/scooterphish/) * (@scooterphish) * [21 years, 9 months ago](https://wordpress.org/support/topic/rant-about-attitudes/#post-84985) * Tables are EEEevilll. Take a look at [my site](http://scooterphish.us) -I managed to create a tableless layout from someone elses table infested template that made it look exactly the same way. Looks good in IE and Mozilla. The CSS way is _soo_ much easier to tweak than futzing with table widths, etc. I’m from the same “Used to swear by tables until I discovered CSS” camp, too. * [Root](https://wordpress.org/support/users/root/) * (@root) * [21 years, 9 months ago](https://wordpress.org/support/topic/rant-about-attitudes/#post-84987) * The reason no one has *bothered to check* your link is that any half competent web designer has that site at the top of their bookmarks, reads it every day, and knows all the things to do or not do to avoid those hazards. Your proposal put simply is that because IE can not manage CSS we should abandon it, and with it the principles of web standards design. You are disguising that attitude with a tables argument but deep down you want designers to build sites for Microsoft users. There is a very big difference between what we choose to do on our own sites and what we propose here. If any of us proposes anything at all to a well informed audience they should be prepared for principled and informed criticism. It is basis for improvement. You should read the php threads. Those guys go through hoops to get the thing working. * Thread Starter [jonimueller](https://wordpress.org/support/users/jonimueller/) * (@jonimueller) * [21 years, 9 months ago](https://wordpress.org/support/topic/rant-about-attitudes/#post-84989) * Root, why must you be on the defensive. The reason I posted the link was to explain why I opted for tables. Not because I was saying “looky here at this cool NEW site that I JUST FOUND.” Sheesh. I’m not going to argue with you. It’s tantamount to the Mac versus Windows argument and it will go nowhere. I don’t care who designers design sites for, but since IE is still a significant presence, then it should be accommodated. And the attitude that anyone who designs a site using tables is somehow inferior or stupid or not worthy of your consideration is just plain silly. Yes, CSS is here to stay and it’s great and I’m not knocking it. All my other sites use it, but for my WP site, I choose a table. It works fine in all browsers (I have no way of testing it on a Mac), which was more than it was doing before it was a table-based design. So my point was, if I’m asking a WordPress- specific question, get off my back about my design. I didn’t ask you to critique it or rework it, I simply wanted my WordPress question answered. And last time I looked, this wasn’t alt.html.critique. That’s all **I’m** saying. You have a nice evening, ya hear? Joni * [wairoanz](https://wordpress.org/support/users/wairoanz/) * (@wairoanz) * [21 years, 9 months ago](https://wordpress.org/support/topic/rant-about-attitudes/#post-84990) * Didn’t Sigmund Freud say: * > “I have endeavoured to guard myself against the enthusiastic prejudice which > holds that CSS is the most precious thing that we possess or could acquire > and that its path will necessarily lead to heights of unimagined perfection.” * He said something like that, anyway. 😉 * [usafdcc](https://wordpress.org/support/users/usafdcc/) * (@usafdcc) * [21 years, 9 months ago](https://wordpress.org/support/topic/rant-about-attitudes/#post-85047) * So, what have we learned here. Some people want to be helped but not hastled, some are unmovable and will never change and either HÃ¥kon Wium Lie or Eric Meyer invented CSS. Im betting it was Al Gore. * [serendipity](https://wordpress.org/support/users/serendipity/) * (@serendipity) * [21 years, 9 months ago](https://wordpress.org/support/topic/rant-about-attitudes/#post-85049) * usafdcc: nicely summarized 🙂 * [Root](https://wordpress.org/support/users/root/) * (@root) * [21 years, 9 months ago](https://wordpress.org/support/topic/rant-about-attitudes/#post-85050) * This did not get started with any one who needed to be helped at all and you know it. It got started in another thread with someone trying to foist a copyrighted work, riddled with invalid code and a table based layout onto the community and being supported by our friend here. They are now pretending they just wanted some help. * [zadu](https://wordpress.org/support/users/zadu/) * (@zadu) * [21 years, 9 months ago](https://wordpress.org/support/topic/rant-about-attitudes/#post-85064) * Guys, this is great entertainment, keep going! * [carthik](https://wordpress.org/support/users/carthik/) * (@carthik) * [21 years, 9 months ago](https://wordpress.org/support/topic/rant-about-attitudes/#post-85073) * This forum right here, called “Miscellaneous” serves just that purpose. There is almost no intrusive moderation on these forums. I wish it remains that way and that people moderate themselves a little. I wish users would respect other’s opinions, and not indulge in mud-slinging. * [usafdcc](https://wordpress.org/support/users/usafdcc/) * (@usafdcc) * [21 years, 9 months ago](https://wordpress.org/support/topic/rant-about-attitudes/#post-85080) * **2fargon:** Yes you are right. Maybe, in the future something like “rants and raves” or “non support comments” could be added. Just so these types of comments could be kept out of or moved from support. Also it would be easier for the devs, when it comes to future conciderations. IMHO. * [dss](https://wordpress.org/support/users/dss/) * (@dss) * [21 years, 8 months ago](https://wordpress.org/support/topic/rant-about-attitudes/#post-85133) * I have a really stupid question: can css call a table? Viewing 15 replies - 1 through 15 (of 16 total) 1 [2](https://wordpress.org/support/topic/rant-about-attitudes/page/2/?output_format=md) [→](https://wordpress.org/support/topic/rant-about-attitudes/page/2/?output_format=md) The topic ‘Rant about attitudes’ is closed to new replies. * In: [Everything else WordPress](https://wordpress.org/support/forum/miscellaneous/) * 16 replies * 12 participants * Last reply from: Anonymous * Last activity: [21 years, 8 months ago](https://wordpress.org/support/topic/rant-about-attitudes/page/2/#post-85603) * Status: not resolved ## Topics ### Topics with no replies ### Non-support topics ### Resolved topics ### Unresolved topics ### All topics