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Multistep image upload in 2.7: yuck

  • I got a look at the WP 2.7 wireframe and I’m concerned that the slow and cumbersome method of uploading images that was instituted in 2.5 will remain in 2.7.

    Manniac described the issue well. (and here and here)

    The core is that the number of clicks needed to upload and place images has increased and I now have to wait for several modal windows to load. I used to be able to type my blog post while waiting for images to load.

    I don’t want to spend my day waiting for pretty browser pages to load. I want to write in my blog!

    Please, someone tell me this performance is being looked at.

Viewing 15 replies - 1 through 15 (of 28 total)
  • Samuel Wood (Otto)
    WordPress.org Tech Dude

    @otto42

    You’ve complained about this in several threads, but you still have not really explained exactly what you’re talking about. Uploading images in WordPress is trivially easy to do and work with, and it’s fast as heck. So… where’s the problem?

    And yes, in 2.7 it’s quite fast and friendly. But then I really don’t see any problems with in 2.6 either.

    Here’s a screencast of me uploading some images on my own blog, which is currently running the latest 2.7 SVN version:
    http://www.screencast.com/t/oV91oxZlW

    Otto42,

    I watched your screencast and have a question. When you upload a number of images but only use one in the post, what is the setting for the post-parent id for the ones that aren’t currently being used.

    Do they ‘default’ to the post id of the post that you were working on when the images are uploaded?

    Thanx

    Samuel Wood (Otto)
    WordPress.org Tech Dude

    @otto42

    Well, normally when I upload several like that, I use a Gallery or put all of them in the post as I write it (eventually inserting them from the Gallery tab at the top).

    However, an attachment’s post parent is *always* the ID of the post where you inserted them. That’s how the gallery functionality works.

    That’s what I thought.

    Are there any plans to allow you to modify the parent post id for images uploaded into the media library.

    For a lot of the stuff I’m doing, mostly work for art galleries, clients put one piece of art per post and I’ve written a bunch of scripts to render the images in various different ways. Unfortunately, I’m a forced into getting at the image source using the attachment id.

    If a client screws up and uploads a bunch of art into one post, then all of my code breaks.

    Otto, I’ll show you exactly the speed difference between WordPress 2.3 and 2.7. In this screencast, I wrote my entire post, where I write a few sentences, upload a 1.5 mb image and place that image exactly where I want it in the same time it took you just to upload your images.

    You can see your screencast on the right and me typing is on on the left.

    I hope this helps show what I’m talking about.

    http://screencast.com/t/qqupDSRyA

    Otto,

    You’ve complained about this in several threads, but you still have not really explained exactly what you’re talking about. Uploading images in WordPress is trivially easy to do and work with, and it’s fast as heck. So… where’s the problem?

    Even though your question wasn’t directed at me, allow me to interject.

    The problem is that the Gallery (and the entire 2.5+ user interface) was a feature no one wanted or asked for. The WordPress development team probably thought it was “cool”, and now it is turning a deaf ear to users that say it actually isn’t and never was. Believe it or not, there are users out there who want the 2.3 user interface back. And no amount of repeating how great the new interface is will convince them, simply because the old interface was customizable, so it supported a wide range of user habits, while the new interface is unnecessarily restrictive, so it forces the user to change habits, which most human beings find annoying. It’s as simple as that.

    While I’m at it, I should mention 2 additional tools that I used until WP 2.5. These tools made uploading and manipulating images faster and better than exist in WP 2.5+.

    DragDropUpload is a Firefox plugin that lets you drag and drop filenames with their path information. So if you have a regular text box, you can drag and drop the file from Windows Explorer and then click the “upload” button. This works in WP 2.3 but the blog poster cannot use this in 2.5+ because there is no text box to drag to.

    Flexible Upload is a WordPress plugin that allows a poster to change the image thumbnail size and the final image size easily. This works in WP 2.3 but not 2.5+ because of the radical changes in the image upload system. The options and flexibility that this plugin give you are not available in WP 2.5+.

    Now that I’ve demonstrated the issue, where do we go from here?

    PS, that Jing/Screencast thingamajig is pretty neat.

    Samuel Wood (Otto)
    WordPress.org Tech Dude

    @otto42

    gadlen: Worst demonstration ever.

    First, note that I was demonstrating the use of the thing, not the speed at which it could be used.

    Second, you uploaded one picture and wrote a quick post. Big whoop. You also have no caption on your image, no gallery functionality, and you only uploaded one image. I uploaded 4 images, could have stuck the gallery in (but I didn’t), and those 4 images each got their own post which get special handling by my theme’s image.php file.

    Your way only seemed faster, because you did perhaps a quarter of the stuff that I did.

    Furthermore, your “post” was essentially useless as well. Do you really knock off your blog posts in a matter of minutes? Do you not have any readers or something? It usually takes me half an hour to an hour to compose a good post. But maybe that’s because I actually care about what I say.

    Feel free to stick with 2.3 if you like it better. Most people prefer the new functionality, so it’s not going back to the old less-functional way.

    Otto, your comment seems to have a tone of nasty sarcasm. I don’t understand your anger. I’m really trying to make WordPress better.

    >First, note that I was demonstrating the use of the thing, not the
    >speed at which it could be used.

    You said that uploading in 2.7 was “fast as heck” and I had previously disagreed, saying it was “slow and cumbersome”. Therefore I demonstrated the speed. I don’t understand why you would fault me for demonstrating the very thing I said I was going to demonstrate.

    >Second, you uploaded one picture and wrote a quick post. Big whoop.
    >You also have no caption on your image, no gallery functionality, and
    >you only uploaded one image. I uploaded 4 images, could have stuck the
    >gallery in (but I didn’t), and those 4 images each got their own post
    >which get special handling by my theme’s image.php file.

    > no caption
    I haven’t been able to get captions to work properly on my own blog theme. Which is I suppose my own problem. Though I haven’t seen it used much on other blogs. The majority of the photos on your own blog don’t use captions (4 of the 6 since June).

    >no gallery functionality
    Such functionality could be worked into any image upload system. While I’m still not convinced the current version of the gallery functionality built into WordPress is a good idea, that is a topic for another discussion.

    >and you only uploaded one image. I uploaded 4 images
    I can make another screencast where I upload 4 images instead of one but the results will be the same. I can’t see how you’re arguing that WP2.7 image upload is faster than WP2.3.

    >Your way only seemed faster, because you did perhaps a quarter of the
    >stuff that I did.
    I disagree. Here are the things that you waited for that I did not:
    * You clicked on “Upload Media” and waited 5 seconds for the next screen to appear.
    * You started the image upload and waited 18 seconds on a modal window for them to upload (note that they were small, < 200kb images. I uploaded a 1.5mb image concurrent to writing)
    * You spent 15 seconds setting image preferences that (I believe) should have already been defaulted.

    In those 38 wasted seconds, I typed my post.
    38 seconds is a loooong time to wait for nothing every time you write a post with images.

    >Furthermore, your “post” was essentially useless as well. Do you
    >really knock off your blog posts in a matter of minutes

    Well, actually, yes.
    And if your blog is any indication, then so do you the majority of the time. The majority of the time your posts are just about the same length as the demonstration I gave… a few sentences and an image or link.

    The whole purpose of my commenting here is to hopefully make writing WordPress posts easier and faster. I’m not here to argue for the sake of arguing.

    So I’ll ask this one last time: how can WordPress image uploading be made faster? The modal windows and multiple steps required to upload images that were introduced in 2.5 take up a lot of user time. Can this be remedied? Who might I work with to improve this situation?

    Samuel Wood (Otto)
    WordPress.org Tech Dude

    @otto42

    Otto, your comment seems to have a tone of nasty sarcasm. I don’t understand your anger. I’m really trying to make WordPress better.

    I’m never angry. Sarcastic, perhaps. Text is not a perfect medium, keep that in mind.

    You said that uploading in 2.7 was “fast as heck” and I had previously disagreed, saying it was “slow and cumbersome”. Therefore I demonstrated the speed. I don’t understand why you would fault me for demonstrating the very thing I said I was going to demonstrate.

    It is fast as heck, and my video proved that. But your video did not demonstrate speed of uploading at all, you demonstrated *multitasking*, which is something else entirely.

    I haven’t been able to get captions to work properly on my own blog theme. Which is I suppose my own problem. Though I haven’t seen it used much on other blogs. The majority of the photos on your own blog don’t use captions (4 of the 6 since June).

    My own blog is perhaps not the best example, as I don’t write much on it, as you may have noticed. And what I do on there tends to be experimental. More of a playground than a useful site for anything. However, I do tend to use captions when appropriate.

    However, most professional sites on the internet do have captions on their photos. Any news site like CNN, for example. And getting them to work is just a matter of adding some styling to your theme, really.

    Such functionality could be worked into any image upload system. While I’m still not convinced the current version of the gallery functionality built into WordPress is a good idea, that is a topic for another discussion.

    No, not really. The gallery has quite a few behind-the-scenes functionality that would not work nearly as well in a plugin arrangement.

    I can make another screencast where I upload 4 images instead of one but the results will be the same. I can’t see how you’re arguing that WP2.7 image upload is faster than WP2.3.

    Look closer. You’ll notice that I selected and uploaded all those 4 images at once, with only one selection of images. That could have just as easily been a hundred pictures. With the old uploader system, you had to select and upload them one at a time.

    Much quicker to select your shots, hit upload, and then go make a sandwich while waiting on the network to send them over.

    In those 38 wasted seconds, I typed my post.
    38 seconds is a loooong time to wait for nothing every time you write a post with images.

    You’re arguing for my very next point, was that you cannot write a meaningful post in 38 seconds.

    And if your blog is any indication, then so do you the majority of the time. The majority of the time your posts are just about the same length as the demonstration I gave… a few sentences and an image or link.

    My blog is actually not a meaningful indication, however, there is no post of substance on it that took less than 20 minutes to compose. Some of the shorter ones were tests, such as the Talk Like a Pirate day one, where I was testing translation plugins I had installed and was working with at the time.

    The whole purpose of my commenting here is to hopefully make writing WordPress posts easier and faster. I’m not here to argue for the sake of arguing.

    You could have certainly fooled me, because every argument you make is specious, flawed, unreasonable, and occasionally downright silly.

    I mean, you’re arguing that 38 seconds split between a few tasks is a long time to wait. Are you freakin’ kidding me? Seriously? Because that’s one of the stupidest arguments I’ve ever seen.

    It almost always takes me longer to FIND the photo I want in the post than it does to upload it. I mean, how impatient can you get?

    So I’ll ask this one last time: how can WordPress image uploading be made faster?

    My suggestion for you would be to switch to a plugin to do that sort of thing, or stop using WordPress.

    However, there are certainly ways that it could be sped up.

    The modal windows and multiple steps required to upload images that were introduced in 2.5 take up a lot of user time. Can this be remedied? Who might I work with to improve this situation?

    WordPress is open source. Change the code yourself if you want it changed. Nobody is stopping you. If your changes are for the better, then you’re free to submit them and they might make it into WordPress. If not, then they won’t.

    But that’s the beauty of open source software. Don’t like it? Then fix it yourself.

    In the meantime, I’m inclined to ignore anybody who makes complaints about the FREE software that they got for FREE and are using for FREE. If you want to improve it, then improve it. But useless complaining doesn’t make changes happen.

    I’ll echo what everyone else here has said: the new image upload function, while perhaps wonderful for some people, is slow and cumbersome for the rest of us. I didn’t need, or want, image upload to be broken out into a completely separate module for 99% of my image uploads.

    I appreciate the work that the WordPress team has put into this new module (into all of WordPress actually!), but it was a poor decision for them to assume that everyone would want to use this new method for uploading images. I’d encourage them to add some sort of ultra-simple image upload back into the mix for the times when all we need is a fast image upload. The new tool is great for creating galleries and whatnot, but speaking for myself, I only ever upload images that I’ve already sized to appear properly on my blog.

    Samuel Wood (Otto)
    WordPress.org Tech Dude

    @otto42

    It’s not going to be in 2.7. WordPress 2.7 is in feature freeze, nothing is going to change about it from this point.

    Also: http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/
    Pick one. There’s a few.

    Now, in 2.7, the Media section does have a separate uploader, outside of the post context. You could easily pop that open in a new tab or something.

    In the long run, there was a “Media” panel on the Post screen in some of the early alphas after the crazyhorse migration. It never got fleshed out, and so was eliminated. However it might make a comeback for 2.8, and I could see it having an AJAX quick-uploader widget in it, as well as selection of photos for direct insertion into the post. But it won’t have the functionality of features of the modal dialog, and it probably won’t support captions, galleries, all the good stuff.

    Otto wrote
    >You could have certainly fooled me, because every argument you make
    >is specious, flawed, unreasonable, and occasionally downright silly.

    Remember when I mentioned that your comment had a “tone of nasty sarcasm”. You’ve gone past that. As you point out, “text is not a perfect medium” but you’re writing pretty clearly here. 🙁

    It seems that you’re not reading my comments carefully. For example, I wrote, “The modal windows and multiple steps required to upload images that were introduced in 2.5 take up a lot of user time. Can this be remedied? Who might I work with to improve this situation?” It seems that you didn’t read my third sentence (the last sentence of my comment) because you ranted for 3 paragraphs about how I was complaining without wanting to do anything about it. So I’ll ask again… who might I work with to improve this situation?

    I’m not currently developing for WordPress. I was considering doing so but I didn’t know where to start or who to start with to get in the loop. Otto, your nastygram has done nothing to welcome me. 🙁

    Otto, let me address a few of your specific comments:
    You mention looking in http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/ for (I presume) image upload plugins. I have. I haven’t found any plugins compatible with WP 2.5+ that allow a different way to upload images than the default method.

    >It’s not going to be in 2.7. WordPress 2.7 is in feature freeze
    Ok, how about 2.8?

    >In the long run, there was a “Media” panel on the Post screen in
    >some of the early alphas after the crazyhorse migration. It never
    >got fleshed out, and so was eliminated. However it might make a
    >comeback for 2.8, and I could see it having an AJAX quick-uploader
    >widget in it, as well as selection of photos for direct insertion
    >into the post. But it won’t have the functionality of features of
    >the modal dialog, and it probably won’t support captions, galleries,
    >all the good stuff.

    That would be wonderful.

    I’m a bit put-out that you called my suggestion of this feature “specious, flawed, unreasonable, and occasionally downright silly”. While Jasondunn’s suggestion received a very positive response. No matter, all I want is a WordPress that is a joy to use.

    Samuel Wood (Otto)
    WordPress.org Tech Dude

    @otto42

    It seems that you’re not reading my comments carefully.

    Oh, no, I read them all right. And I stand by every word in my reply.

    So I’ll ask again… who might I work with to improve this situation?

    Errr.. WordPress is open-source. You work on it by yourself, or with others, or in any way you want to. Just do it.

    I’m not currently developing for WordPress. I was considering doing so but I didn’t know where to start or who to start with to get in the loop.

    There must be some kind of fundamental disconnect here that I’m not quite grasping.

    What “loop” are you talking about? There is no “loop”. There’s the bug tracker and the mailing lists… That’s about it, really. Code up your idea, contribute it. Simple.

    You don’t need any sort of introduction. You don’t need any sort of guiding hand or way into some mythical “loop”. You just do it. Join in the discussions, join in the bug tracker, write and contribute patches to the code. That’s all there is to it, there’s no tricks to it.

    All of this is in the documentation: http://codex.wordpress.org/Contributing_to_WordPress

    Ok, how about 2.8?

    No way to tell, unless somebody contributes it, eh?

    I’m a bit put-out that you called my suggestion of this feature “specious, flawed, unreasonable, and occasionally downright silly”.

    Too bad. I calls ’em like I sees ’em, and I can’t help it if you find that somehow offensive. Your ideas seem extremely silly to me, personally, and you seem to act as if we somehow owe you something because you use the same piece of free software that we all do.

    Just because somebody writes code does not mean they have to cater to your requests when you use that code, nor does it mean that they have to agree with you. Free software is free. Get it?

    While Jasondunn’s suggestion received a very positive response.

    Jasondunn does not seem to think that the world owes him anything.

Viewing 15 replies - 1 through 15 (of 28 total)
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