[closed] Disturbing Old Trend (37 posts)

  1. katie1
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Lately I've seen an increase in the request for help by members as old as 15 minutes on issues pertaining CSS/HTML and basic web design.

    What's gives?

    Is reading the Codex files and actually learning about your brand new toy no longer mandatory before one jumps into the WordPress support forums and screams for help?

    What bothers me more, I think, is the expectation from some members - particularly brand new members - who believe they have the right to solicit help in these forums because their brand new toy isn't fully functional and personally customized AND designed the way they want, all within a space of an hour.

    They seem to expect instant and immediate help, without bothering to read and learn from the Codex files or even search the billion or so other websites out there that actually provide tutorials and articles that relate to their problem before they post.

    Or, am I the only one who believes this to be so?

    I may not be a moderator, or even a damn guru, or even an "old" member, or Nielsen come to think about it, but at least I took the time out of my busy life to actually learn basic html/css and web design which is more than I can say for some.

  2. vkaryl
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Nope. Not the only one at all....

  3. moshu
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Thank you, katie1! ;)

  4. spirit892
    Posted 10 years ago #

    I agree completely. I am only 16, but I have more common sense than some of these people. I always use google, go to the codex, or try to solve my own problem by myself. And if that doesn't work, I search the forum. Finally, if I have to ask a question, I ask it politely with these key phrases. I find them to be very useful and elicit a helpful response. Perhaps newcomers could take advantage of this.
    My List of Phrases:
    -Thank you for taking time out of your busy day
    -Thank you for your explaination, it helped me (then I list how it helped me)
    -I appreciate you taking time to read this, even if you don't know the answer

    I have been a member for 3 years (holy cow, that's a long time) and I have seen some digusting, rude behavior towards moderators and other members. I think that the things we as members can do is try to set these people straight. Also, when we post, be thoughtful and polite. And finally, remind the moderators and other helpful members how much they make a difference to this community.
    Thanks katie1 for bring up this issue again. Hopefully, people will read this and take it to heart.

  5. Servant
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Perhaps this will fall on deaf ears (hmmm...is "blind eyes" more appropriate?) but here's some advice from an old wheezer that's been hacking since the dawn of time when it wasn't called "Internet" yet: Use forums BEFORE you take the leap. They're the best preparation resource you can find.

    Not just with WP, but any software or endeavor you're considering, use their forums to read as much as possible to find out beforehand what the challenges are probably going to be. No package is perfect. Go to each of the Dreamweaver and GoLive support forums and you'll see that neither is perfect. But you'll probably have a much clearer idea of which would be better suited for you.

    Also, try to make note of what things you need to bring to the table. Many things such as WP assume you have a minimum working knowledge of HTML, CSS, web design, and FTP. You may not need to be a PHP guru, but you certainly should understand how to read tags and modify the files as provided by the instructions of plug-in developers and the like.

    The support people are very nice here, but I continue to be amazed at how many things that I would judge as not actually being "WP-related" they address. Perhaps us mere mortal users in the crowd need to politely direct others to non-WP resources on HTML/CSS/design issues so our friendly WP support gurus can keep focused on WP.

    If what I'm saying sounds intimidating and way over your head, go to WordPress.com or a similar hosted solution to get your feet wet before coming back and launching the whole enchilada from scratch.

    Hope this helps...

  6. katie1
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Update - from members as old as 5 minutes...


    Oh, dear. Bad me.

  7. vkaryl
    Posted 10 years ago #

    In other words, it WILL get worse before it gets better, hmm?

  8. VaamYob
    Posted 10 years ago #

    I need help customising my WP blog NOW !!!

    It's really urgent. I'm working on my prom's blog so of course, all of you should treat it as extremely urgent.

    Also, I only want EXPERTS to answer. I am just a teenager, if I wanted teenage solutions, I'd ask myself. Only EXPERTS need respond.

    HELP ASAP !!!

  9. vkaryl
    Posted 10 years ago #

    *laughing* VaamYob, you're so far from being the airhead you purport in that post....

    Where've you been lately anyway?

  10. katie1
    Posted 10 years ago #

    @VaamYob - cute, now bugger off :)

    Seriously, you wanna know what's really disturbing? I reckon the majority of new users requesting CSS/x-html/design help aren't teenagers at all, but rather adults with very fluent reading capabilities.

    It's a sad and sorry tale, to be sure.

  11. vkaryl
    Posted 10 years ago #

    It's laziness, which is symptomatic of much else in the world today as well. *shrug* It'll probably change one of these days, and into something even less attractive.

  12. spirit892
    Posted 10 years ago #

    I'll admit that many of my teenage peers are extremely "etiquette-challenged". However, I think that adults too are caught up in the fast paced modern society. The whole I-want-it-now philosphy is promoted by technology, which provides instant gratification. Perhaps these people don't realize that we are humans too, and that we aren't going to drop everything to answer their questions.

  13. Joni
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Well, they could always hire a capable web designer to do it for them. On second thought, how would they behave toward their web designer to whom they've given cold hard cash?


  14. flammobammo
    Posted 10 years ago #

    For when I ask someone to volunteer to help me with something blog related, I go by what I call the "two sleep rule".

    That is, work on it a lot, read tutorials, etc, and have at least two sleeps before asking people to volunteer their time to help.

  15. katie1
    Posted 10 years ago #

    @spirit892 - and you're only 16?

    [sigh] If only there were more teenagers like you around this world it would make a better, more mature place in which to gossip.

    I like your theories...

  16. anatman
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Do you get email sent from the contact form you have set up in your blog asking for help about nearly everything that has been cited here? Even after you have set up links to the appropriate places people should go for help?

  17. whooami
    Posted 10 years ago #

    The fact is that all of whats been mentioned in this thread is nothing new. Take a look at LINUX support sites, or Windows support sites, vbulletin, phpBB, you name it .. theyre ALL the same. And guess what? As the popularity of any application grows, the "laziness" (not my word) within it's support area multiplies.

    Thats just the way that it goes.

    It's easy to say that a rudimentary knowledge of something ought to be necessary, or at the very least an attempt should be made to gain that rudimentary knowledge -- I'm the first to say that it would be nice if people learned what administering something actually takes before installing LINUX on that box in the basement -- but guess what, it's rarely the case.

    Deal with it.

  18. katie1
    Posted 10 years ago #

    I realize, and accept that, everything in this thread is 'old' concerns, especially to the creators, moderators, and loyal, productive members with memberships greater than my own.

    But surely we must, as a progressive community, try to rectify the way we administer our Support Forums, so we actually tend relevant WP issues instead of every issue.

    As things now stand, we are (for those who regularly help out in the forums) correcting / repairing / fixing / modifying / altering – and in some cases, actually designing – minor to major design & theme repairs/issues more and more each day, without offering our members external resource links in our replies for better promotion of self-learning & education.

    I’m not just talking about promoting the Codex files, but other high ranking, detailed websites whose core premise is step-by-step tutorials and articles of this nature.

    Every single time we respond to a member’s cry for help on issues that directly relate to: CSS/XHTML and Web Design – when clearly these people have not served themselves by taking the time to actually learn the rudimentary particulars, nor have they attempted to search, or read the Codex files, or even attempt to rectify the problem themselves with good ol’ fashion checking and tweaking – we are, in fact, endorsing and supporting the non-compliance, non-educating behavior of our members.

    Let’s face it. If we were to buy a brand new car, which usually involves handing over thousands of dollars, we don’t expect the salesman to teach us how to drive the thing.

    That’s not his department.

    WordPress is free, yet we offer on-going detail support to issues that are NOT WordPress related.

    Can you not agree that our support forum, as it now stands, defeats the purpose of saying: Please read the Codex before you Post?

    Why bother directing anyone to read the Codex when our support team answers all CSS/XHTML/ Design questions, anyway?

    More the point, can someone please explain to me why anyone would want to read the Codex when all CSS/XHTML/ Web Design help they need is but a few keystrokes away?

    Yes, for the overly cynical members, I suppose I could just delete my WordPress username/ password, hang up my CSS/XHTML hat, and leave all this nonsense behind me.

    But I often read the extraordinary lengths our moderators go to in a vain attempt to help someone they don’t know, someone they’ve never before met, someone who couldn’t be bothered to read the Codex, someone who couldn’t be bothered to come on board and pick up some of this CSS/XHTML/ Web Design slack, and I think to myself: Yes. I can help.

    I should help. After all, knowledge shared is knowledge learned.

    Yeah, right.

    I suppose I should just deal with it, and move on.

  19. whooami
    Posted 10 years ago #

    You can move on, or just chose to not answer the posts you find so, shall I say, irritating, for lack of a better word.

    Im not attacking you, I am merely suggesting that rebel-rousing "the community" into not answering questions will get you nowhere.

  20. Kafkaesqui

    Posted 10 years ago #

    And sometimes, replying to a simple css query is a nice change of pace for some of us...

  21. katie1
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Yes, it is a lack of a better word, because at no point did I mention the word "irritating" and for you to suggest otherwise, when clearly I have NOT mentioned it, when clearly I have said that I am willing to help, when clearly I was being sarcastic at the very last - and I apologise to you now for it - is, in essence, a form of attack.

    And, please, kindly accept the fact that I'm not attacking you, but I am merely suggesting some positive changes to world-weary avenues that evidently disturb - even frustrate - a great many people. It goes without saying that I include myself in "a great many people."

    And, frankly, there's no 'rebel-rousing" taking place here, but one person's opinion on a subject that seems to be escalating every day, and from the input to date, - not just this thread but others - complete agreement across the majority of the board.

    If I cannot express my point of view without someone suggesting, even black marking, that I'm "rebel-rousing the community" into "not answering questions, surely you should take your own advice on board, and ignore it.

    Or better yet, deal with it :)

    And for the record, I suggested that we attempt to provide external educational links in our replies, to facilitate greater learning, and hopefully, eventually, decrease the ever-present support loads.

    But again, I'm not attacking you, just responding to your blunt expression.

  22. jabecker
    Posted 10 years ago #


    I think whoami came the closest to what I believe is actually happening. When any software product is first released, it's users tend to be those who are experienced with that type of software and the environment it runs in, because those are the users who can see its advantages. As it becomes more popular, it pushes further and further into a population that grows less and less experienced. Hey, Johnny down the street uses this stuff, so how hard can it be? right? WordPress advertises itself as easy to use... the famous 5-minute install and whatnot.

    I had little experience with blogging or its software when I started with WP, too. But I've been around computers and software for 20 years and I know how to find out answers to questions that might pop up. I'm mostly able to solve my own problems with a little research.

    But what if my computer experience was limited to a bit of web surfing, a document or two, and printing out a few pictures of the kids? If I'm interested in blogging but don't want to join Blogger or Livejournal or the like, "easy" software like WP might be attractive. But I might not have a clue how to help myself if I run into trouble.

    Where's the disclaimer on the download page that states that a knowledge of css/html, php, sql and basic web design are assumed? Where's the suggestion that if you don't knows these things already, you'd better pay someone to install this "easy" software for you?

    Yes there are a lot of people here who ask questions first and do research later. And some of them are rude.

    But what really astonishes me is the rudeness of some of the people who answer, especially when the question is being asked by someone who sincerely needs help. All of us at one time were new to this and needed help.

    We're all volunteers here. If you don't want to help, then why come here?

  23. Kafkaesqui

    Posted 10 years ago #

    Uh, before the next reply pops up here, may I suggest taking a deep breath, counting to ten, and remembering why we're all here? This particular train is starting to go down the wrong track, when it really doesn't need to (you could say I'm sensing a disturbing old trend...).

  24. whooami
    Posted 10 years ago #

    wow, take the chip off your shoulder.

    You are the one who said above :

    "Why bother directing anyone to read the Codex when our support team answers all CSS/XHTML/ Design questions, anyway?"

    I know what that sounds like to me.

    And for your information, I couldn't care less if you attacked me or not. My CSS/WP/xhtml/plugins all work - I dare say I won't ever need any time out of your "busy life".


    Kafkaesqui: im done with the thread -- I think I said my .02 worth.

  25. katie1
    Posted 10 years ago #

    I accept Kafkasequi's suggestion and will no longer post to this thread - on the proviso that I'm NOT attacked, even under the chillingly polite cover of "I'm not attacking you."

    I'll now bow out.

  26. katie1
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Sorry Kafkasequi -

    so not to imply otherwise...


    @whooami - I am greatly confused.
    I was merely asking why we promote the Codex when the majority don't seem to read it?

    I'm not fully up to speed on your work/plugins or your website, but I never mentioned you or anything remotely to do with your work nor did I suggest your work is below standard.

    I don't believe I mentioned you at all.

    I did not specifically attack any one creator of anything.

    I endeavored to keep personal comments/insults of any one individual from my input.

    I didn't mention the word irritating or laziness

    And because I stand up for myself I suddenly have a chip on my shoulder? You were blackmarking me simply because I expressed a generic pov.

    I'm still greatly confused as to why you're pulling snippets of context from MY input and changing the overall tone to imply terrible, personally directed insults.

    I already apologized for being sarcastic – and it was completely genuine and heart-felt.

    I don't even know you - and I'm still confused.

    And now I'll gracefully bow out.

    Thanks Kafkasequi

  27. Kafkaesqui

    Posted 10 years ago #

    katie1, reading back through this thread, I see from me only 1. a cute remark about css queries (well, I thought it was cute), and 2. a suggestion we cool our heels before the discussion gets out of control.

    I believe you're replying to whooami, who will have to explain any remarks about css/plugins/et al.

    I would however like to point out that this brings up a point I was sort of trying to make in my previously last reply, which is, considering the generally non-personal nature of the OP and the topic at hand, we should not be taking this personally.

  28. katie1
    Posted 10 years ago #

    oooh. No. No. Noooo.

    Forgive me Kafkaesqui - I wasn't talking to you - I didn't want to use @ and pointedly stiputate any one person.

    Forgive me.

    This is not directed at you, and yes, you did make a cute remark.

    I was merely thanking you for your suggestion and allowing me to respond.

    That's all.

  29. Kafkaesqui

    Posted 10 years ago #

    Ah. I've at least proved that anyone can misread a forum post... ;)

  30. katie1
    Posted 10 years ago #

    I agree that it is entirely possible to misread posts.

    I also believe that it is entirely possible to incite personal attacks.

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