Any drag and drop editors?

  • silverface

    (@silverface)


    13 years, 8 months ago

    Despite all the marketing about WordPress.org being the easiest website creation software ever made, I’m finding exactly the opposite.

    I think part of it is I’ve spent decades using software to create a home page (index.html) and then other pages linked through a menu (in WordPress jargon, I think a “sidebar”) on the front page.

    But even though I know little html (just enough to change the names of picture files, make text bold, center something and such) a normal page took maybe 30 minutes to set up using one of many drag-and-drop editors.

    but I can’t find any such thing with WordPress. The “Visual Editor” is still in code, and I can’t take a pre-formatted list (that easily has items added or removed) and just drop it on the right or left side.

    After several hours of digging through the Codex I finally got rid of the site name and “tag” at the top of the page (if anything should be an added-later-if-needed-item, that’s one – can’t imagine why anyone would want it) and creating a somewhat-decent header in Photoshop – but although I’ve checked boxes for menus I can’t find them; and although I’ve unchecked “comments” boxes they still show (on my page that has a header, “hello world”, a comment link and admin link only).

    I created an “About Us” page – and it has no menus either…but weirdly the “Dashboard” (I think) says I only have ONE page – but I have two.????

    Someone offered to assist but it would take hours for him to “talk me through” it without him knowing what the page codes look like, but I cannot find the pages stored anywhere.

    What my “target” is is actually very simple: The index page with a header, a “content” area with whatever wording is pertinent and maybe a couple of pics, and a menu on the left side; then when those items on the menu are selected pages will appear with specific content – same header (or maybe slight variations), the content, the SAME menu as the first page and another menu to specific documents (product data, services details etc).

    So what I’ve ben trying for days to find is:

    1. The actual Visual Editor (if there is one, which I relate to a drag and drop editor).
    2. If there isn’t a real Visual Editor in WordPress, is there another one I haven’t located?
    3. Where are the pages stored (so I can create semi-clones of them like normal, which cuts the time by a factor of 10 vs making them all from scratch)?
    4. Is my installation fouled up, or when you “activate” a Theme do they each have different items that show up on the left side in the administration panel (I messed with several before finding one I thought might work, but not a single one seemed to have the same items on the left menu, or sidebar, or whatever it is – making some of them apparently impossible to edit until I can find where pages are stored)?

    Thanks in advance for any info. WordPress was highly recommended over the software I’d used in the past, but it’s completely foreign and the documentation so extensive (and oddly a combination of either conflicting or outdated info in many cases) and complicated that there just doesn’t seem to be one organized system I can locate to accomplish creation of about the simplest, normal type of site on the web.

    Thanks –

    (PS – interestingly, an example of “foreign” is right below the forum posting window – “Allowed markup: a blockquote code em strong ul ol li.” and “Put code in between ‘backticks’. I have NO idea what that indicates; half of the first example looks like a Scrabble tile set with too many “l’s”.)

Viewing 8 replies - 1 through 8 (of 8 total)
  • elfin

    (@elfin)

    13 years, 8 months ago

    You’ve asked a lot in there, some of which is going to be difficult to explain (sorry).

    I haven’t looked at it, but someone recently posted a link to this:
    http://www.wordpress3guides.com/

    which has a downloadable pdf that might be of interest for you.

    Now to try and answer the specific points:

    1&2 – there are 2 editors by default, Visual Editor and HTML. (though both can be used). If you are fine with using HTML, then that maybe the better option. however it sounds like you want a Visual editor that does more than what would be classed as standard. But look at the toolbar for the editor, and the very last item – called the kitchen sink – click it and it’ll bring up a second row of buttons. One of those is a paste from Word – which may be what you are looking for.

    3 – the content of pages are stored in a database. You don’t need to clone them (if I understand why you wanted to) WordPress handles the menu all by itself, and can generate it automatically (dependant upon your theme). I’d actually suggest you start by using twenty ten, just to get a feel for things and then look, install and test other themes.

    4 – different themes have different functionality as well as looks.

    I think you need to just play with things – create a few pages, create a few blog posts and see what happens when you do so.

    I rarely use the ‘allowed markup’ in replies on here, it’s not absolutely necessary to use.

    Thread Starter silverface

    (@silverface)

    13 years, 8 months ago

    Thanks, I’ll check out that link.

    I’m not an html expert – I can tweak parts of it to add content and pics: that’s about it.

    But the “html” here isn’t – it’s xhtml and a totally different animal; it’s completely unfamiliar to me.

    I *have* poked around and tried, but I cannot get any definitive methods for creating something like:

    (edited to add – when posted none of my indenting showed up – I’m inserting periods…pretend they are invisible. None of the items in the menus need numbering, just bullets…but I don’t see character insertion on the forum; assume each has a normal round-dot bullet.):

    Main Thing
    ….One of them
    ….Another one
    ….Another one
    ……A first type of that one
    ……A second type
    ______________________ (i.e. a line between menu sections)

    The next Main Thing
    ….One that fits here
    ….And here
    ……Another “child”

    Instead, I create pages that show up nowhere (except an “About Us” page with a tab under the “home” page header that goes there – but no idea why, and no “home” tab to get back to the start.

    Which is another subject – I can’t view the home page from the admin area…I have to type the localhost” stuff in the URL window. Which also means that after I did the initial Theme tweaks to get a decent header on top I can’t get to the page to add the menu either (or content, or anything else).

    I *do* like the idea of a row of tabs for one use and a sidebar of hierarchal menu items for another – but I’ve spent over a week messing around (and it is with 2010 Theme – a “Weaver” variation, whatever that means – the description seemed like it was more capable of my layout ideas) and have not a single page to upload to my host.

    MAYBE a visual example will help – my old company – and I no longer am associated, so please do not use the contact form to reach me – had a site basically along those lines. It was handed to me a few years ago to maintain (along with my REAL job) and I never had time to fix all the things wrong, but did get it half-way functional.

    What I’m after is a similar (but FAR less crowded….it’s pretty chaotic) layout and navigation, but with the WordPress flexibility of updating regularly, adding RSS and other feeds, and keeping ALL “links” inside the site itself (i.e. not send visitors to another site)

    Maybe the “visual” of this one will make more sense than a long description:

    http://www.waterproofingcontractor.com

    thanks!

    PS – still didn’t understand the reference to the text below the posting window…???

    elfin

    (@elfin)

    13 years, 8 months ago

    let’s deal with one things at a time.. otherwise it will get too complicated.

    So you have created several pages, but only one is showing up in the menu.

    Now first we have to check that the page is actually published, is it?

    Next, there is a setting to set a parent page, have you touched that at all for these pages?

    But, I think it would be far easier for you to get help directly, rather than via the forums here, but obviously it is unlikely to be given for free. There maybe others ‘books’, or videos out there that may help other than the one I mentioned above. There is a WordPress for Dummies(no offence meant, I’ve used a few from the series myself in the past) book, but I can’t recall what version of WP it was based on.

    Thread Starter silverface

    (@silverface)

    13 years, 8 months ago

    Thanks for the reply Rich. I actually bought one book before installing WP, read the whole thing – and afterwards discovered there was a .com and .org that are on different planets, and…yep…I got the wrong one.

    I had one offer of online help (which was very kind) but having used/abused various systems for decades I know I’d be taking up WAY more time than he anticipates.

    As far as “published” – I’m not sure. I can get to it and edit in a code window (no visual editor appears now, and I checked to ensure I hadn’t disabled it…nope, but there’s no editor choice, just “editor” and once there that’s it – lots of page pieces on the right side of the screen, but clicking on those simply dumps the code in the edit window – and xhtml is even MORE foreign to me than I thought.

    Even the little bit of html I know well doesn’t work, and entering the code for a simple html page into the editor results in nothing (xhtml’s weird indents and apparent method of keeping all the actual data somewhere else makes no sense; with html I had numbered lines, everything left-justified and I could easily keep track of tweaks – with this it’s a free for all).

    If I could even find my index (front) page I could try to create an “under construction” page with company logo, but THAT page only shows up under “Theme”…like it’s not even a page.

    The drag-and-drop editor noted above made me think I’d hit (finally) upon what I wanted – until anything I subject it to ends up “broken” and can’t be used, period.

    As far as OTHER books – I’m hesitant to spend another $40-50 on something that may not be pertinent, or may refer to Codex pages that are 5 years old (that’s been a huge problem – finding a related issue to mine…and it’s awfully common for users to ask for a header and a sidebar menu…only to find out it related to a 6-year-old version of WordPress and no one ever deleted it.

    There ARE mentions of thousands of pages of instructions, plugins, widgets (the same thing as far as I know) but no one maintaining them; I can’t trust ANY of the support docs, having wasted days on something that evidentially has been superseded and won’t work.

    I thought I posted a decent visual example. I’m amazed that nowhere is information that would help creation of the single most common type of layout in existence.

    But my amazement makes me think I’m just not getting to the right pages, or there are options I can’t locate because of different jargon.

    I’ll keep “bumping this” in hopes SOMEONE will understand exactly what I’m talking about, not be locked into the whole “blog” thing and know where I can find either:

    1. A working drag-and-drop editor (the drag from Word stuff doesn’t help create sidebar menus, just content)

    2. OR a theme that already looks like my example when adding/removing menu items and having them go to specific pages (AND having that same menu on each page) is already set up. I’ve looked at hundreds and can find nothing (I did find a couple possibles, but after activating them found there was no way to change colors, header pic, or whatever).

    It just seems like it should be “101” stuff, but maybe I was given bad recommendations by all those who suggested WP (which was everyone) even though what I am creating is NOT a BLOG.

    (I’m still sort of laughing in a confused way when I see those little notes under the post window with no link to what the heck they mean.) And honestly, at this point seeing “CODE IS POETRY” makes me ill.

    Moderator Samuel Wood (Otto)

    (@otto42)

    WordPress.org Admin

    13 years, 8 months ago

    I see your problem. It’s one of mindset.

    Basically, you’re coming from a page editing background, where you created the entire page as one unified thing, then put that one unified thing on the web.

    Modern content management systems don’t work like that.

    There’s a few reasons for this, but the underlying reason is that making whole pages is a wasteful pain in the ass. You spend hours getting one page to look right, then when you want to add to the site, you have to make a whole other page with all the same material just to make it look the same. This is what most sites want, after all, to display a similar interface to the user throughout the entire site.

    Instead, CMS’s like to use a templating system, where instead of defining every entire page as a separate entity, you create a template that defines how the site looks, and then content is taken from different sources, on-the-fly, and plugged into that template. All this page creation happens at the time the page is needed to be displayed on somebody’s browser.

    So no, there is no system to change the sidebar and the content at the same time, because the system, as a whole, does not work that way. You have places to edit the content, places to edit the sidebars, a place to define what the site looks like as a unified whole, etc.

    Your main content is your Posts (and possibly your “Pages”, which are like Posts that you don’t change very much). The reason you only see the content in the Visual editor is because that’s the only thing you’re editing here: the content.

    Sidebars are generally edited in the Appearance->Widgets screen, and generally they are displayed on the entire site, or at least a large portion of it.

    Navigational Menus now have a special editor under Appearance as well, if your theme supports it.

    And finally there is the Theme, which is largely the raw code and HTML that pulls all these things together and gives them a visual appearance.

    The best way to use WordPress is to get out of this whole-page mindset, and edit pieces one at a time. You’re not really going to want to change your sidebar at the same time as you change your content, because those are two separate things. Pick one, change it, then go change the other.

    Moderator Samuel Wood (Otto)

    (@otto42)

    WordPress.org Admin

    13 years, 8 months ago

    Also, this quote is very telling:

    …and have not a single page to upload to my host.

    WordPress isn’t an HTML editor and it doesn’t produce pages that you upload to your host.

    WordPress is a software program that runs ON your hosting service. It generates the pages directly to the user when they visit your page.

    WordPress runs your site. It is your interface for editing your site, live, on the site. You don’t run it locally and make pages and upload them. You install WordPress on your site and it is a management system for you to edit content on your site itself.

    Thread Starter silverface

    (@silverface)

    13 years, 8 months ago

    Thanks – I’m trying to get my befuddled brain wrapped around this concept of…well, the only way I can think of to describe it is working on a jigsaw puzzle where the pieces may look to be the right colors and shape but the size is not a factor (or function superseding form – which is probably the most baffling thing, as without the layout, I can’t figure out the format, size and number of “things” (I have to toss “menu”, “category”, link”, “post” and 20 other items I’m forgetting as generic “things” that HAVE to go somewhere) I can put on…sheeesh…”a page that doesn’t exist” (?).

    The normal website plan (to me) is to have a rough idea of content and layout – then create “menus” (in WP are these “categories”? That’s never been clear) that FIT the layout – so I tweak the fonts, spacing, and whether to use single-line links to other pages (sorry, but I don’t know what else to call what I’d link them to) or use drop-down menus to save space on the *screen*

    So if I’m understanding those posts right (and please don’t think I’m mad or arguing – I’m trying to understand) you can’t create a layout. You pick a theme, it forces a layout, and if your content won’t fit you either have to be skilled enough to reprogram the entire theme or find a new one. If so, that’s sort of what I’ve been doing for a couple weeks – finding themes that *look* like what I need, but as soon as I activate one it’s empty (no matter what content I previously had).

    One note:

    “You spend hours getting one page to look right, then when you want to add to the site, you have to make a whole other page with all the same material just to make it look the same.”

    That’s unfortunately incorrect. With NVU or some other (I’m jargon-crippled, but I *think* “static” is what the word is) editor I create a master “page” – header color, picture placement, the master menu (which in WP isn’t a menu, I guess – what I mean is a list of hierarchical links on (usually) the left side of the page)…and that master menu is the same on every page – and if I keep the content brief and to the point that’s maybe an hour at the outside.

    Creating additional pages based on that one take minutes If I have the content ready. It’s drag-and-drop or copy-and paste, and clicking ONE tab shows me my page, and if anything was too long I either edit or move content to another page.

    Second note:

    “The best way to use WordPress is to get out of this whole-page mindset, and edit pieces one at a time. You’re not really going to want to change your sidebar at the same time as you change your content, because those are two separate things.”

    I get what you mean, I think – but there are two problems I can’t solve (having tried to mess with that idea already): 1) If I edit a “piece” I have no clue whether it will look right, and precisely what I *don’t* need to do that was assumed above – recreate the next page from scratch – I DO have to do in WP; 2) As I’ve posted previously, I can’t locate the “pieces” I need anyway. Maybe a “sidebar” is a wrong term? What I showed was a list of indented menu-structure items. I can’t find anything like that – the editor takes me to windows of xhtml on the 2010 Theme, and on others I might see a visual editor but it’s the same exact thing with two rows of boxes that don’t ever provide “visual” content.

    Again, I really appreciate the advice to get out of the “page” mindset.

    Now if there was just some kind of up-to-date method I might be able to do that – but I keep hitting Codex items that are obsolete or so jargon-loaded they’re of no use at a basic layout stage.

    Anyway, if anyone has suggestions – thanks! Because I have MUCH bigger problems now – I’ve never been able to find and edit my main…or front…or index…or whatever it’s called “non page” except by accident, but it’s worse now – after putting my Mac to sleep, leaving for a while and coming back I cannot log onto my page AT ALL. The “http://localhost:8888” and or with wp-admin or whatever (going from memory) added to the end give me a “cannot connect to the server” error, and 45 minutes of searching has returned zilch…

    So I may have to (for the 5th time) delete the whole mess and install it AGAIN.

    Moderator Samuel Wood (Otto)

    (@otto42)

    WordPress.org Admin

    13 years, 8 months ago

    Email me. otto@ottodestruct.com

    I’ll try to walk you though it directly as best I can. I can see that you’re *really* close to getting what you need, but might need some one-on-one assistance. 🙂

    BTW, what you want to do is to create a theme. It’s not hard. Really. But it does require grasping HTML as text instead of thinking of it in a drag/drop style fashion. Visual editors for pages are ultimately very limited, when you get right down to it.

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