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[closed] WP needs to get its S**T together! (24 posts)

  1. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 5 years ago #

    Upgrading to WP 2.6 has been a nightmare for a lot of people. WP's official response seems to be one of either attitude or neglect.

    In case a reminder is needed - WP is a for profit company. It may be free to use but even with that economic structure the people using the software should still be treated a customers.

    1. My advice would be to find Moderators who are less condescending and defensive. We should not be made to feel as though we have to grovel for support. And we should not be made to feel like we have to be seasoned Webmasters to use the forum. Is this the kind of message WP wants to send to it's users...

    Make no mistake about it, running WordPress on your own host is not "having a blog", it is "running a website". And this support forum is for those people who run their own website. I do not cater to the clueless on this support forum, nor do I have any plans to start. So if somebody doesn't know how to search or know the very basic principles, then I will tell them to skip the idea of running their own site and to use wordpress.com instead. They'll be happier that way.

    2. Accept the fact that a lot of untrained would-be webmasters use your product. Increase your support for them. Every Webmaster has to start somewhere. Don't you want them to begin with WP? Aren't you supposed to be a starting point?

    3. Weed out and ban people from the forum who serve no purpose other than to demean and ridicule others. Whoami comes to mind here. I can only image how many people she has discouraged from ever asking a question again...

    I would hang it up, no sense in continuing, move to Hawaii, smoke dope all day and forget about blogging ..its the end of the world as we know it ...

    that or you could do just a little searching.. do you think this might have come up before??? its not like there isnt a B I G - A S S S T I C K Y P O S T on the front page of the forum or anything. Do you see it? Right at the top.

    4. Don't release another update unless you have the support ready to troubleshoot.

    Seriously, WP is a great product and is popular for a reason. I would hate to see the ill will on this forum bring you down. Do you really want to be the Friendster of blogging software?

  2. Klark
    Member
    Posted 5 years ago #

    Just fresh install and avoid those upgrade woes. Although even with a fresh install, i got the permalinks issue, which is bad.

    But cut them some slack. I'm sure they know already that their upgrade process needs alot of work.

  3. noname1
    Member
    Posted 5 years ago #

    My only gripe with WP is the codex is either populated by articles for previous releases (therefore not relevant) or the codex architecture lacks the ability to find the required info. I'm now using external sites simply to understand template tag functions.

    I'd never need to use the forum if the codex was logical and up to date.

  4. RoseCitySister
    Member
    Posted 5 years ago #

    I had no issues at all with my upgrade.

    As far as your other complaints - this is a very, very popular software. The community is meant to provide the support. I too wish that the forums were more responsive, but I'm not sure why you think that because they make a profit by other means, they are obligated to provide professional customer service for free along with the software. That is kind of unrealistic, don't you agree?

    Also, you have to realize that some people, who worked very hard to learn this software, get tired of seeing the same questions over and over - questions that could have easily been solved by a simple search - and they overreact. If you can look beyond that and search out and read some of the posts made by the person you referenced, you will see that she has very valuable knowledge and information to share.

  5. rawalex
    Member
    Posted 5 years ago #

    Ohgobugger: One of the single most frustrating thing for me has been coming to this board and after a while realizing that the support board wasn't "product" support but at best a sort of horrible peer to peer network of the slightly less uninformed helping the uninformed. So you get a weird disconnect between the product people (who seem to rarely be around here, I certainly can't tell them apart) and the people who might use their product.

    It's sort of like a mental institution where the least mental gets to hand out the pills to the other patients :)

    Hopefully the true wordpress people will bless us all, come down here, and say "we are the developers" and discuss the issue and try to resolve them, rather than hiding in their TRAC systems and mailing lists.

  6. Dan.F
    Member
    Posted 5 years ago #

    some people do seem like douches though, I agree. I hate people who know a little bit about something and think it makes them better than those who are just starting out. People need a bit of respect for the people who taught them what they know, and need to learn to follow in their footsteps and pass the knowledge on in the same way.

    So you know about php/apache etc, you aren't special, its not some secret society, get of your high horse and help others to learn, like others helped you.
    And don't forget, even if you are 'self-taught' from books or websites... some kind person chose to share their knowledge with you by writing those sites/books.

  7. korythewebguy
    Member
    Posted 5 years ago #

    The number one reason I believe some of the mods and WP-savvy site admins get a little angsty in the forums? They see the same question(s) asked over and over again every day, sometimes by people who are demanding an answer/resolve rather than kindly requesting assistance.

    I realize the WordPress Forums offer search functionality as well as keyword tagging, and genuinely appreciate both... but honestly, there has got to be a better solution to organizing the chaos, not only to make it easier to isolate issues & location solutions, but also to let the mods/WP-savvy admins keep their sanity and not be scared off by mobs of frustrated neophytes.

    Perhaps the WordPress forums need to be revised to mandate that all trouble-shooting tickets use tags from a static list, as well as contain WP/PHP/MySQL version info and a CSV list of installed plugins, as to better organize & correlate issues as they arise.

    Hopefully others will have some ideas as to how troubleshooting WP issues and logging solutions could be better - It would honestly make the WP community much stronger, and lessen the number of frustrated newcomers and the number of times solutions have to be re-posted for them.

    Just my own $0.02 - and hey, I could be totally off in left field on this one...

  8. Boris
    Member
    Posted 5 years ago #

    I think Otto42 is spot on. You're not expected to know everything or be a brilliant webmaster. What you are expected to do is look around for an answer before you ask the question (which I have to be honest I have done before as well, but have learned from). Quite often for the 200th time. This gets people annoyed, which is understandable. If you think you don't need to learn some basics when you want to set up a website, then you either have to pay someone to do that or get an account with wordpress.com.

    Don't forget you're getting a kick-ass application for nothing. Searching around a bit to get your answer (there's always google as well) and waiting a bit to get support is the least you can do. You can only expect 24/7 support from a product you're paying for. Truth is that if you ask nicely, you'll get a nice response. If you get all worked up about it and write angry hate posts, then how does that affect your future support questions? Just chill out, dude...

  9. mrmist
    Forum Janitor
    Posted 5 years ago #

    This forum is a lot better in terms of the support that you can get than some others that I've seen.

    You'll get people rubbing folk up the wrong way on any forum. Quite often, though, those same people also give out a heck of a lot of useful advice. It's a fine line that a moderator has to tread to know when to step in and when not to.

    Also remember that people who are giving answers here are not being paid to, they are giving up their own free time to try to help other people out. It can grate on you as a volunteer to see other people slagging you off because they haven't got an answer to their question within 2 minutes of posting. Unfortunately I think that that sometimes comes out as people venting in other threads. That could probably be cut short by a mod, but there only seems to be a few mods here and quite often they are busy answering their own threads, because they are contributing as well as moderating. Also if you are not careful with a forum you can kill it by over-moderating.

    You could always try MovableType. You can buy the product and have access to paid support. You may find that that suits your style more. Personally though I stick with WordPress because I think that "nothing" is a pretty good price to pay to get the WordPress software and a stack of volunteers who will help out when there are problems.

    If you want to help improve things, then dive in to the Codex and fix/improve bits of it, and instead of starting provocative threads purely designed to get folk annoyed, try helping some other folk out.

  10. Lester Chan
    Member
    Posted 5 years ago #

    Personally I am doing support for my own plugins for at least 3 years and I am the only one doing it.

    It pissed me off when people ask stupid questions before searching or RTFM. Most of the questions normally have been asked more than once. They just need to freaking search for it.

    If I am not wrong the moderators here are NOT PAID, they are doing it out of their own free time which is the same as me.

  11. Ziyphr
    Member
    Posted 5 years ago #

    I find it more productive to report bugs and technical issues on the WP trac. One of the issues I put on there was solved straight away.

    One thing to remember is that running your own install on a server does require technical expertise. Some people using WP would be better off on wordpress.com or should hire a pro to run their site. Anyone who has been creating websites for the past 10 years will understand there are always a few problems when upgrading, especially when relying on 3rd part plugins. In my opinion WP handles this better than most and is moving at an excellent pace. But in this instance this upgrade was too fast and not tested enough.

    In future I recommend people wait at least 72 hours before upgrading, just to see if anyone else has problems. If you rush into it expect a few minor issues (by web dev standards).

  12. hotkee
    Member
    Posted 5 years ago #

    I do think wordpress releases are too frequent, perhaps something could be done to make the release cycle 3 / 6 monthly or something.
    But to complain and start postings like this one is just plain ungrateful.

    Wp is FREE - its not something anyone is paying for - no one is forcing you (Ohgobugger) to use it - if you dont like it, then use something else. People who help answering questions are doing it for free.
    Dont complain by being offensive and rude.

    Most of the upgrade problems with 2.6 are due to either people not copying the files properly and overwriting EVERYTHING with the new stuff or plugin problems (well if you deactivate them then you can figure out which ones are not going to work with new version).

    No one is asking you to grovel, if you search the forum before posting you can readily find answers even before asking (it might be an idea to stick wording to this affect at the top of the page in bold red letters).

  13. whooami
    Member
    Posted 5 years ago #

    I happen to agree that while Otto's response might have been a little harsh, it is spot on, factually. Its been said over and over again, that there is a base level of knowledge that is necessary to use WP successfully. The codex has been expanded in the last year and 1/2, to accommodate some of that info: how to use an FTP client, permissions, etc...

    Those of us that have been active on here the longest have seen the upswing in the use -- what has come with that upswing is less knowledgeable users, and in large part, users that are unwilling, or unable to properly use the documentation, OR search.

    I urge anyone who feels the need to complain to forgo working on **their** own permalink or login problems and instead answer a few thousand posts. Have at it! Step up!!

    --

    And honestly, if you cant see the attempt at satire in the first paragraph above that you quoted of mine, you really need to lighten up. The OP, in that case, *didnt* do this, but many many people do come here with relatively minor issues, tack an "URGENT!!!!" onto the topic title and then post as if the world is crashing down around them. It's blog software, NOT the end of the world, folks.

  14. mrmist
    Forum Janitor
    Posted 5 years ago #

    2.6 did seem to go from RC to prod version pretty quickly. I wonder if having any longer between those stages would have helped, or not. Impossible to say for sure. Sometimes if you have a testing group that is very used to testing a certain product, they might do things without even thinking about them (e.g. delete old cookies, refresh cache) so that doesn't even get flagged as an issue.

    Of course, there is a question of whether or not having to delete old cookies etc. is a program bug or not. I expect that the refreshed version could have been coded such as it is not necessary, but at the same time you have to ponder over whether someone running a blog should be tech-savvy enough to know what to try doing before having to get help. I even slightly modified the codex to suggest flushing cookies if an upgrade causes issues, but that would only help if people bother to read it and act on it.

  15. mojorob
    Member
    Posted 5 years ago #

    I do feel that the search functionality on the wordpress.org site could be improved. What I am referring to is a search of the documentation, using an exact piece of wordpress code (e.g. the_title() or wp_get_archives etc.) does not result in the page directly relating to that coming up first on the results page - in fact, more often than not does not come up on the first page of the results at all.

    I would have though it be useful that if someone put in the exact wordpress code into the search for it to be returned high up on the search results - this in itself could result in fewer of the initial kind of queries along the lines of "what does this do" and "how do I use this".

    People see this code in templates, and want to know what it does so they can learn for themselves - the wordpress site is difficult to find information like this. If you don't try the search, then you end up going through a whole load of pages trying to get to what you're looking for.

  16. Lester Chan
    Member
    Posted 5 years ago #

    mojorob: try using google to search instead. I used that often.

  17. whooami
    Member
    Posted 5 years ago #

    mojorob, to some extent you are right -- with experience though, once can find that putting a template tag into google usually takes you right to the codex page, if one exists.

    Using your examples:
    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=the_title&btnG=Google+Search
    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=wp_get_archives&btnG=Google+Search

    I dont assume that people know THAT particular nugget.

    Its a normal occurance, it happens on every support forum -- people can get to the abc forum okay but once there, you would think their browser locks on, and can go no further -- hence the popularity of that now dead "google ir moron" web site -- their words, not mine.

  18. mojorob
    Member
    Posted 5 years ago #

    Maybe so - but if the website itself provides a search function then people expect that search function to work effectively. If that search function doesn't work, then the forum on the same website is the next step. Finally, a 3rd party solution might be used - which includes searching on a search engine of your choice.

    The logical approach is to use the tools provided by the website of the publishing solution (i.e. the wordpress website). It is therefore logical to expect useful information to be returned on a search based directly and entirely on a bit of wordpress-specific code. Similarly, it is logical that if the first step doesn't work to use another tool on the website, i.e. the forum. The thinking can go that if the search didn't work for the wordpress code, then why would it work on the forum?

    Taking it further, an ineffective search function could be seen to represent an ineffective product. I really don't think it's in the best interests of those behind wordpress to provide a search facility which doesn't return the best search results, and the need to rely on a 3rd party solution such as Google.

  19. whooami
    Member
    Posted 5 years ago #

    mojorob, you're preaching to the choir.. we are merely pointing out an alternative solution. I would LOVE it if the search here was that intuitive.

    And like I said, that lack of googling is seen on EVERY support forum Im a member of. And the same complaints arise ....

    Its worth noting also that with every major release of WP these sorts of threads pop up.

    In all fairness, though, there are instances where clearly a search of the forum WOULD provide an answer. And yet somehow, those same questions ...

  20. Tom Belknap
    Member
    Posted 5 years ago #

    Another modestly helpful hint, as long as we're pointing out how to make the best of a not-always-great situation. Try putting the following into a Google search:

    the_permalink site:wordpress.org

    That will allow you to restrict your search to WordPress.org, which while not always the best solution (third party pages often have more and better detail), will at least allow you to browse the codex a bit more efficiently.

    Having said that, the customer service on the forums could stand to be improved somewhat. Yes, the moderators probably are volunteers, but justify a company's lack of professional technical support by simply saying, "well, they don't even pay for it!" isn't exactly effective. Better documentation in the Codex - and that primarily means <b>complete</b> documentation, even if it's not in-depth - in the first place would avoid a lot (though of course not all) "silly" questions in the forums. And besides that, beginners questions are always "silly." Some people just need a human touch and some reassurance in order to dig into the harder stuff. A good company appreciates the interest.

    And as long as I'm pitching a b*ch, I'm tired already of the ridiculous development schedule. It's bad enough keeping up with stuff on a straight WP site, but running WPMU and having to constantly upgrade is a harrowing experience with little benefit. The trouble is: enhancing functionality and security should be separate endevours, but with WP, it isn't any more. Now, if I want the latest in security, I have to deal with all the latest in functionality, which might likely break a plugin or three that I'll need to upgrade/fix. It's very "Microsoft-ian."

    OK, I feel better now.

  21. whooami
    Member
    Posted 5 years ago #

    Ive not wanted to go down this route, because doing so tends to turn things into a pile on, but hey -- thats what the modlook tag is for.

    Having said that, the customer service on the forums could stand to be improved somewhat.

    Thats crap. In my own defense, I googled a fair amount of catch phrases combined with my forum name.. and found JUST as many thank yous from people as I did from people that said I was rude.

    Yes, the moderators probably are volunteers..

    Theres no probably about it, they ARE volunteers.

    simply saying, "well, they don't even pay for it!" isn't exactly effective.

    Your injecting a word that changes the entire meaning of that sentence, and its largely misquoted.

    There is a HUGE difference in meaning between this:

    "well, they don't even pay for it!"

    and this:

    "well, they don't pay for it!"

    Typically, the ONLY time that the latter comes up, is when someone is impatient, AND/OR assumes/expects an answer.

    Furthermore, and most importantly, EVERYONE here is human, prone to human foible, misreads and miswrites.

    I give you this:

    http://wordpress.org/support/topic/189672?replies=5

    I read that thread, before gamerz replied. I didnt read a threat into the OPs post -- he did, apparantly. Its called human interaction.

    Moshu gets heat because English isnt his native language, and some of his replies come across wrong.

    Otto is technical.

    I am brief.

    people are different, and read AND answer things differently.

    I, make no bones about the fact that I dont want to be "touch feely" >> I'm sorry if thats offensive, im sorry if that makes me a "douch"

    some people do seem like douches though, I agree.

    Further to this:

    I hate people who know a little bit about something and think it makes them better than those who are just starting out. People need a bit of respect for the people who taught them what they know, and need to learn to follow in their footsteps and pass the knowledge on in the same way.

    So you know about php/apache etc, you aren't special, its not some secret society, get of your high horse and help others to learn, like others helped you.
    And don't forget, even if you are 'self-taught' from books or websites... some kind person chose to share their knowledge with you by writing those sites/books.

    That whole line of thinking is outlandish. Commmon but still oulandish.

    The fact is that someone that knows more than you doesnt think theyre special or better -- it does, however mean that they know more.

    Imparting years of knowledge about a particular topic into 6500 posts (my approximate post count) each and every time you post is an awful daunting task. Thats why MY OWN site sucks 60G of bandwidth from clickthroughs from this forum -- No, I dont post itty bitty videos that are barely watchable on youtube to spare my bandwidth -- I have 900 pixels wide videos that are watchable that impart knowledge. Ive covered countless WP issues on my own site.

    Furthermore, your entire reply reads like someone who expects others to do your bidding. Its not about a high horse -- its about helping those that help themselves. There are thousands of threads on this forum where people just want answers, and they want them yesterday. They dont want to learn to use the tools that are available to them, they dont want to google, they dont want to understand, they JUST want that answer.

    They get the answer, and because theyre not open to to those other things, they come back a day later with another similar question.

    CSS issues -- How many tutorials on CSS are there on the web?? HOw many web sites are there on the web that explain what a link is? Yes thats come up here, "how do I make a link??"

    I love helping people that are sponges -- Frankly, the more people that know what I know, the more people that know what Ottps knows, the more people that know what Moshu knows, the safer the web will be. I don't want people on the Internet that can't upgrade a plugin, or cant upgrade the blog.. but you know what, WE have lives too. We cannot be all things to all people, We cant do EVERYTHING for you -- YOU have to carry some of the load.

  22. whooami
    Member
    Posted 5 years ago #

    I was thinking about about another forum that I use, one of the mods there is VERRRRRRRRRRRY helpful (by anyone's standard). He's also, I believe, paid.

    He charges 75-80 bucks an hour for one on one help -- with a three hour minimum.

    Not even he can answer every thread.

    I know of several high profile forums where the moderators are paid; this is not one of them.

  23. rawalex
    Member
    Posted 5 years ago #

    whooami, I know you love me and all, but I think you are greatly missing the point. This isn't all about getting paid or anything. It is about wordpress "the company" providing the needed resources so that it's users can continue to enjoy the product.

    It is easy to provide technical help to informed, intelligent people. It is easy to offer technical support to someone who is at your level or perhaps a little above. It is much more difficult to offer technical support to someone who is below your level, especially if they are far below your level or are missing things you consider fundimental. WordPress is the type of product that loudly claims ease of use and the "famous 5 minute install", so you are going to get some of the least technical people in the world trying to use it.

    That translates to 101 questions a day about css, about why is this column on that new theme in the wrong place, I can't connect to the database, this plug in isn't work, this page won't load. I see the titles and I read most of them, and I sometimes even offer help if I think I have an answer.

    None of that give you, otto, or anyone else the permission or license to be rude, condescending, insulting, or (in my case) to make reference to what some of my sites are and suggest I could afford to hire people to program it for me. I didn't see a sign on the door that says "you can't use this if you make more than $1000 a year from the web" nor did I see a sign that said "you must be fluent in mysql, php, apache and unix before you can use this product". So your position here if you choose to accept it is to deal with that reality in a friendly manner.

    The repeating questions you see over and over are often a result of version changes and changes in functionality that happen. With the reminder bug on every blog, people are pouring in trying to upgrade, even if they don't really urgently need it. In the case of 2.6, it appears to have been nowhere near enough testing with the goal of hitting a release date rather than putting out the right product, so this week there are many more queries about things that just aren't working.

    The hell of supporting a product like this is made 100 times worse when the product has bugs, when the documentation is almost non-existant, and when this sites search function leads people off into a maze of totally irrelevant, out of date pages:

    http://wordpress.org/search/my+rss+feed+doesn%27t+work?forums=1

    You might want to suggest to the programmers that that take a month off from writing the next big change and instead take a little time to document their work,bring the codex up to date, and address the bigs that haunt the current release so that there would be fewer pointless queries. Then ask them to create a CSS / page design / blog design help forum and let those questions go there instead of here. Maybe then you and otto would be happier campers and less likely to jump on people.

  24. Samuel Wood (Otto)
    Tech Ninja
    Posted 5 years ago #

    My 2 cents.

    1. WordPress the company makes money through WordPress.com and the services they provide there. They do not make money through self-hosted WordPress sites. "Free" software sort of speaks for itself.

    2. None of the mods mentioned in this thread, including myself, are part of WordPress the company. Period. I am unpaid. So is everybody else who helps in this forum.

    3. "Moderating" these forums basically just gives me the power to control and fix spam. Nothing really beyond that. I can close and/or delete threads too. There's rarely a need.

    4. Text is not a perfect medium. Quite often, posts intended to be technical or humorous may come across as rude. Fact of the medium. I very rarely try to insult anybody intentionally. But if it seems like I'm talking down to you, that's probably because I am. How can you explain something technical without seeming like that most of the time? There's no high horse here, I do try to help people, and I get a lot of praise for it. But the people who come into this forum and think they are being insulted generally are either a) oversensitive or b) getting made the butt of a joke because they failed to search for something extremely obvious. A little light humor is easily misread through the wonderous medium that is text.

    Learn to cope, people. Seriously, this is a stupid conversation in the first place.

    And now this thread is closed. This is a support forum, not a whining circle. Future threads complaining about this sort of thing will be summarily deleted. Keep it technical, keep it on point.

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