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Why using Kubrick on 1.3 is a mistake (132 posts)

  1. goodsnake
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    I am going to get flamed here and that is fine but I am going to voice my opinion on this one. The default template in WP sucks, this is something most heavy users and early adapters know. But replacing it with a version of Michael Hellerman's Kubrick is a bigger mistake.
    I will admit that it is nice on the eyes but when I tried to load it on a brand new test install (Mingus) it had htaccess problems. Then to edit it to make it have a banner graphic etc I have to edit it with photoshop??? How many people can afford photoshop. Let's say Matt converts it out to css, is he also going to take out the plugins or expect all brand new users to learn enough on their first day to learn how to turn it on. I think it is going to be so hard to edit that most people won't meaning very bland pages that all look alike (are we trying to become MT), I know I don't want it so how many files will I have to delete to get rid of it but I know it was a pain to get off my test install.
    I think there are a lot of people who have worked hard to have an easily editable templates for WP. One of the things I loved about WP over MT is that I did not have to be a rocket scientist to make my blog pretty. I love WP and generally like the development cycle we have been on, but I am not sure that going from a very bad template to a really complex one is the way to go.

  2. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 10 years ago #

    They are using Kubrick as the default for 1.3? I can't believe it. What about the forum contributors who have worked so hard producing resources to explain the current index and css, were they consulted about how all their hard work was going to be wasted? Or told they were going to have a whole new set of issues to sort out?
    Default templates should be as simple as possible. Why? It encourages customization and makes it easier. It is easy enough for people to go and download Kubrick if that is the look they want, but including it in the distro makes things a whole lot harder for those who don't. Please reconsider.

  3. goodsnake
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

  4. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 10 years ago #

    *shakes head* Kubrick is a beautiful style but making it the default will only discourage innovation. What is wrong with Gemini?

  5. tedfox
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Let's wait for the final product and see how yes?
    It won't be easy incorporating kubrick and yet having the plain good old install that fits on all, that comes with WP.
    So let's see what gets presented to us.

  6. OperaManiac
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    whats wrong with current template? we just need a better looking css :D and i would prefer if the default comes without any graphics.

  7. charles
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    The post on Michael's blog doesn't say that Kubrick is going to be the default template, just that a "variant" of Kubrick will be included with WP 1.3. Maybe 1.3 will ship with a few templates, one of which will be a variant of Kubrick.

  8. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 10 years ago #

    What is the current situation in CVS?

  9. Mark (podz)
    Support Maven
    Posted 10 years ago #

    No.
    I asked more than once.
    I will not produce any guide for Kubrick.

  10. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 10 years ago #

    If the King of Siam was offended by a courtier, he would give him a rare white elephant. It was a great honor to receive a white elephant, however, the cost of maintaining it in an appropriate fashion generally bankrupted the recipient.
    Which is a roundabout way of saying I hope Michael is geared up for all the newbie support requests that will be heading his way :)

  11. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Just curious. Why is a broken layout being considered for the default template?
    Here's what I get in XP at 1024 (among other things):
    1) header and footer break in IE.
    2) 10px horizontal shift when navigation links are clicked in Moz, FF, and Opera.

  12. willneea
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Just curious: forgot login. Again.

  13. carthik
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Whoa! Relax, guys, and have some faith in the developers ;)
    I am sure that Matt, and the developers will always try to keep wordpress simple to use and customize and that everything will be in the best interest of the community. The best solution would be to incorporate the better parts of different solutions, and I guess that is what will happen, in the long run. Let's just wait and see, yes? :)

  14. Millennium
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    It looks to me as though Kubrick as we currently know it will not be going into WordPress 1.3. They seem to be forking it, in order to try and get rid of the current technical problems people are having.
    I'm curious, though; why would Kubrick-as-default "stifle innovation" any more or less than any of the current defaults?

  15. Millennium
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Perhaps more to the point, why would including, for example, Gemini or Trident as the default "encourage innovation" any more than Kubrick would? How does the default encourage innovation, other than by the fact that many people don't seem satisfied by it? Does Kubrick discourage innovation simply by being good, and even if so, then what is the problem with that?

  16. goodsnake
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    When the current version of Kubrick requires a $1000 program called Photoshop to change what it looks like, that does stifle innovation. Also, have you looked at the bundle of files and stuff that comes with that thing, and it doesn't even work. You would lose the ability to change the CSS to change the look of your index; therefore stifling innovation.

  17. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 10 years ago #

    I'm with 2faragon here...
    christ, you people need to calm down.
    1.3 hasn't even been released yet so who knows what Matt will do?
    do you really think he's going to leave it so you are required to use photoshop to edit the template? have some faith in Matt, he's not going to leave it like that.
    Michael even acknowledges on his blog:
    "Now, I say 'variation', because some of the things that I do in Kubrick are entirely dependent on the server being setup just right (this is why there are so many problems with .htaccess for instance. So what Matt is doing, is cutting down on some of those things where needed. But quite honestly, I'm not sure exactly how much or how little will make it into the final thing, so now you know what I know."
    so, stop spazzing out and just wait until 1.3 comes out.

  18. NuclearMoose
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING!

  19. zadu
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    goodsnake: i just opened the Kubrick photoshop file in a famous open-source program called Gimp that cost me exactly $0.00. I can see and edit all the different layers just fine.
    Having said that, I agree that if there is only one default template, then it should be one with no graphics, because, as you rightly say (IMO), it discourages customisation. I also agree that Gemini and Trident are better in this regard.
    Whatever the default will be in 1.3, the CSS should be full - I mean FULL - of comments explaining what each bit of CSS does. Especially the bits dealing with positioning/float/clear that people are having so much trouble with. I believe this will really help noobs like myself customise their look. And forget about the extra ~1K file size, people can always take the comments out when they're done with the customisation.

  20. zadu
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    moose, :-)
    Seriously though, IMO the "just wait and see what happens" attitude belongs to the world of closed-source software (and dictatorships, and stuff I just don't care about). There seems to be a consensus that the default template needs to change, brilliant, now let's discuss what we want for WP1.3. And let's not just pick one of the first 2 or 3 existing templates that come to mind, let's start with defining the objectives and then derive a solution from those.
    Here's what I think the objectives should be, in decreasing order of importance:
    - not inherently borked like the current index.php
    - displays the same in all browsers
    - easy to customise
    - well documented to help with customisation (see my last post)
    - pretty

  21. TechGnome
    Moderator
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Wow. I wasn't going to add my 2cents worth, but now that I have stopped laughing so hard, I can.
    Does it really matter that much what template ships with WordPress? I know I don't give a flying fork what the default template looks like (no offence to Matt or the devs) because I know I'm only going to look at it long enough to figure out what changes I need to make to my current template, and then I toss the default template right out.
    For as long as I have been using WP, people have been asking for a new default template. Well, you know what? You got what you asked for.
    Secondly, Matt isn't stupid, I have every confidence in him that he's going to make it as easy as possible for the graphicaly challenged, like myself.
    @zadu:
    - not inherently borked like the current index.php - I agree
    - displays the same in all browsers - A big deal for a lot of people.
    - easy to customise - I think this goes with out saying.
    - well documented to help with customisation (see my last post) Maybe not so in the CSS itself, but rather a link to the online version with comments. FYI: adding comments like that to the CSS will affect d/l time of the CSS file. While negligible, with some of the plugins may of us have, we can use all the speed we can get.
    - pretty - I have mixed feelings aobut this.... While it would be good for someone jsut starting out, I'd hate to see the Bloggerization of WP, where it seems like 1 in 4 sites have the same template, because it looked good enough and they jsut left it.
    TG

  22. Michael Heilemann
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Whoa people, calm down.
    First of all, I am quite interested in hearing your opinions. There are some good points, but you sure do come on hard over something that you hardly know any details about.
    Currently this is in Matt's lap, so he's calling the shots. I've offered my assistance in whatever form he may want it.
    As for Gemini and Trident, I hadn't heard of them before just now, and having looked them over I'm sorry to say that I'm not particularly impressed. [flame removed.] Obviously I'm biased, but that's where I stand anyway.
    As for 'every blog will look the same!', that's really no different than the way things are looking now. Except perhaps that the current style is scaring people away :)
    As Zadu says, Photoshop isn't needed to edit the image file, and if I can get away with it, I'll of course also try and get the template file out in other formats.
    Plugins, 'proprietary code' and such shenanigans are of course not going to be included, which is why I talked to Matt about retaining Kubrick as a separate template as well, for those interested in the full solution. And right now, nobody knows how much or how little is going to make it into the WordPress 1.3 distrib.
    I have and continue to put a lot of time into Kubrick as well as the furthering of WordPress. I wish only the best for it.
    So be patient and civil. And cheer up a little, we're in this.

  23. OperaManiac
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    so we should not include a good looking template because that will make all the WP users to stick with it?
    Hmm... Now I know why none of WP installations use the default theme... coz general idea is that its too yucky. :D and that was intentional on Matt's part!

  24. Root
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Well I do not think we want to get into comparing what is on the one hand no more than a simple and unstyled adaption of index php and what is on the other a fully themed offering. It is not comparing like with like.

  25. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 10 years ago #

    I agree. Everyone needs to calm down. Surely Matt will not be so stupid as to force everyone to download pirated copies of Photoshop from Kazaa.

  26. Root
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Well I certainly hope not :)

  27. Mark (podz)
    Support Maven
    Posted 10 years ago #

    "Does it really matter that much what template ships with WordPress?"
    TG- This is not getting at you at all.
    It matters A LOT.

    1. It matters because it is the forum helpers here who have to pick over the css for other people who have broken it. These are the questions that take the longest to answer.
    2. It matters because unless this is incredibly well handled, the forums will flood with people wanting help, and it's only the forum helpers who respond to that. Note 'forum helpers' there ....
    3. It matters because 1.3 will potentially be more widely adopted than 1.2 so the potential calls for help will be larger.
    4. It matters because any such change and it's impact should not be judged by people who can do CSS, but by people who cannot and need help.
    5. It matters because no matter who shiny or wonderful any CSS looks, the very first thing that people will do is try to individualise their blog.
    6. It matters because 1.3 may have had a pile of nightlies, and benefited from that, but this could potentially just be let loose with no backup from those responsible for the change.
    7. Anonymous
      Unregistered
      Posted 10 years ago #

      [anonymous flame from 62.137.39.40 removed.]

    8. carthik
      Member
      Posted 10 years ago #

      zadu, Design by a committee is bad, design by a community - well that's impossible :)
      Please take this in the right spirit. There is only one dictatorship at work here, and we all report to the Great Northern Moose. He says the sky is falling, so drop your stylesheets and get grab some sheets of tarpaulin.
      Any questions?
      Alright, so we all had fun speculating, but let's remember that that's all this is.
      Podz, your concerns are valid. One reason I don't respond to stylesheet related questions is because of the effort it takes to find what's going wrong, and where.

    9. Michael Heilemann
      Member
      Posted 10 years ago #

      Anonymous: I wasn't throwing snide remarks, I was merely saying what I would say on any day of the week, regardless of whether Kubrick had existed or no.

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