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UL and LI (61 posts)

  1. Orbit Juice
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    After hacking up my admin backend files (post.php, edit.php, etc), I began to notice a really wierd trend.
    Why are all the 'buttons' in the admin area list items, then only to have the list attributes stripped via CSS? Why not just make them actual buttons?
    Which is a lot like the "get_category" function. It's the same thing. A list item, with the list item attributes removed. Why not just make it straight text that the user can seperate with a line-break?
    It's really boggling.

  2. Orbit Juice
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    It's not difficult using style sheets. I'm just curious.
    Even without being actual buttons, they could have been just regular links with according CSS to make them look like buttons.
    I was just curious as to why many of them were list items with the list item attributes stripped via CSS.

  3. Nick Momrik
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Because they ARE a list and should be marked up as such. It's the semantically correct way to do it and this is one of the things WordPress strives for. The list item is not stripped, just styled with CSS.

  4. Orbit Juice
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Ahh ok.
    Thanks MDV.

  5. southerngal
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    I took them all out as I don't like how lists look. If you put in your .CSS the no bullet, you get a weird break, so I just take them out each time.

  6. antifuse
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Yeah... this has been something talked about on these forums several times... the devs are really big on creating semantically correct code, which is rare (and in my opinion refreshing) to see these days, and tends to lead to a lot of confusion from people that just want to display it the easy way, without having to learn CSS too :)

  7. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 10 years ago #

    another example of the developers imposing their own ideas about coding on the poor old users. it's my site, i should be able to decide whether i want to use lists or not.

  8. Nick Momrik
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    It's not the developer's "own ideas", it's called web standards.

  9. tcervo
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Well said, MDV...Web Standards aren't some arbitrary set of ideas, being imposed on "poor old users." We have standards for a reason. Just as you shouldn't be able to decide whether to use punctuation (or capitalization) in your writing, you shouldn't be able to decide not to use semantically correct coding. A list is a list is a list, whether it's your grocery shopping list, list of favorite movies, or a list of navigational items. How you choose to display those lists is up to you, and there's a nearly endless variety of options available using CSS. If you would like to use incorrect, invalid, inaccessible, and difficult to maintain code...pick up a copy of FrontPage and have at it. Just don't be surprised when *your* site ends up in the latest web design book as an example of what not to do...

  10. Orbit Juice
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    CSS isn't hard to learn.
    But, what I don't get is that, you define it as a list, only to code the css so it looks like a regular link and not like an unordered list.
    That's called "redundant code".
    If you want it to look like a basic in-line link - might as well have just left it as a basic in-line link.
    Most people would rather have functions that work correctly (as an example, the file upload script, private posts, etc) than have the code abide to standards that probably 90% of the net population doesn't even know exist.
    The age old too and fro of 'function over form'.

  11. NuclearMoose
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    OJ,
    The only way people are going to learn about the standards is by having to use and abide by them. I would disagree that CSS is "redundant code." It's not the foundation of the structure--it's the paint on the walls. As a user, I have to be VERY careful not to screw with the PHP code and break it. The CSS, however, allows me to monkey with how the results of the code are displayed--let's not forget that the default CSS that comes with the install is just one person's idea of how to present the page. The CSS doesn't strip anything, rather it directs the browser on how to display, or NOT display, certain things.
    Craig.

  12. tcervo
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    It's not redundant at all...it's separation of content and style. A non-CSS aware browser doesn't know or care about how we want it to look in a modern visual browser. To them, it's a list. These include most version 4 and earlier browsers, text browsers such as Lynx (still used by a large population...particularly for reading text-based material such as blogs), screen readers, and search engine spiders.
    The nice thing about doing it correctly (as an unordered list) is that I can change the look, orientation, whatever for my entire site just by changing the style sheet. The style sheet is cached, so it's only loaded once, then read from cache for subsequent pages. That's called efficiency. If I want to change my links to look like buttons...no problem. If I want to change them to act as a dropdown list...no problem. If I want to change their orientation from an inline horizontal list to a vertical orientation...no problem...All done with CSS, while keeping the underlying code sematically correct and lightweight.
    As for the "most people would rather..." argument, I have no interest in debating a head-in-the-sand argument. Whether people know standards exist or not isn't even close to being a lucid rationalization for coding incorrectly. I'm having a hard time understanding why doing something correctly, which also results in MUCH EASIER maintenance and site-makeovers in the future, is such a problem?
    (beating my head against the wall)
    -Tony

  13. Jason
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    "If you want it to look like a basic in-line link - might as well have just left it as a basic in-line link."
    I have to disagree. Use markup to define things as what they are. Something like this,
    Pizza, Hot Dogs, Chicken Noodle Soup
    is just as much a list as this,
    *Pizza
    *Hot Dogs
    *Chicken Noodle Soup
    Regardless of the default presentation by the browser, things should be coded as what they are: lists should be coded as lists, whether they are to be displayed horizontally or vertically; headings should be coded as headings, whether or not you want the default size/padding/etc. given by a browser.

  14. Orbit Juice
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    God forbid it be easy for the end user to understand and manipulate.
    ...and people wonder why MT is so popular.

  15. tcervo
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    How "easy" is it to manipulate a list of items delineated with
    tags, pipe symbols, or whatever? What if you want to change orientations? Make them appear as buttons? Give them graphical backgrounds? And the list goes on...
    What's easy is having structured content. If I want to change the list items inside a particular div, I can do whatever my heart desires in the CSS file, and it will change site-wide. Can't do that with incorrect markup. Sorry, the easy to understand and manipulate argument isn't holding water.
    If I wanted to use MT, I would. I don't think it's a bad program, and it can be made to produce standard's compliant code as well (I've seen plenty of MT sites that are valid, and they all mark up their navigation and sidebar links as lists). For me, WP is easier to modify and is *more* flexible. That's just my opinion and my choice. WP vs. MT vs. Whatever has nothing to do with using standard's compliant code.

  16. antifuse
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Well, everybody here has pretty much covered what I wanted to respond to. Markup is the building blocks, stylesheets are to make it look pretty. People seem to think that the idea here is to make WordPress the most popular blogging software out there, able to be used by the world over. Really, that's what Blogger and LiveJournal are for. If you look at the features page for WP, the first thing on there is "Full standards compliance"... clearly, that's something that the developers deem to be very important for the direction that WordPress moves in. If you have a problem with that, feel free to take it up with them (I'm sure Matt would love to argue with you about it), but you can't really say that it caught you by surprise - it's the very first feature!

  17. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 10 years ago #

    I agree with antifuse. It's silly to argue that WordPress should be making things easy for people who can't be bothered to master CSS and code to web standards. It's an elite blogtool for elite users, and I applaud the devs for keeping it that way.

  18. Nick Momrik
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    I had some lists lingering around my site that I was too busy (LAZY) to convert to semantically correct lists. I figured I posted to this topic so I better get in gear and at least practice what I was preaching. I easily changed things to lists and styled them with CSS. I have quite a few that you couldn't tell are lists unless you look at the code. :-)

  19. NuclearMoose
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    @Anonymous,
    "Elite blogtool" my big hairy moose @ss, dude. It's not for everybody, but it's not a tool for Ɯbergeeks. It's a tool that is both sophisticated enough for lots of development possibilities and simple enough that people with a modest level of computer skills can install and run.

  20. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Yeah, maybe it was stretching it to say 'elite'. It's not unusual to be able to code to web standards and be able to handle PHP and mySQL. This is the basic skill level that WordPress requires. What I'm applauding the devs for is not dumbing it down so any stupid little teenybopper with no coding knowledge can use it, unlike, say Movable Type.

  21. NuclearMoose
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Anon,
    Ah, I see. Cool.

  22. rob
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Mike,
    Thanks for the resource...that is some very cool stuff.
    -Rob

  23. davidchait
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Yeah Mike! Very, VERY good site to link to in this discussion!
    I'm actually thinking of dropping back a bit from my rounded tabs (www.chait.net), and moving back to non-graphical css tabs to simplify the styling... They have some great examples of doing cool stuff without the need for the sliding-doors-graphics approaches...
    -d

  24. Matt Mullenweg
    Troublemaker
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Anonymous, I suspect you're trolling, but giving you the benefit of the doubt I think it's completely false that you need to know PHP, SQL, or even good XHTML to use WordPress. If you continue to post the way you have been under an anonymous account I'm going to moderate your posts as trolls. If you have something constructive to offer, maybe you should think of a better way to phrase it.
    Next, to clear a few things up. First, this discussion started around the use of an unordered list for the menu in the admin area. 99.9% of users are never going to change anything in wp-admin, much less look at the code, so I don't see why it's particularly relevant why we code one way or another.
    Why is it coded the way it is? It's practical as well as political. WordPress is centered around a number of beliefs. One of these is that the application should follow widely accepted web standards. Second is that the administration should be accesible to everyone, be it someone with a screen reader or on a text browser like Lynx. Don't think this will never apply to you just because your vision is fine and you always browse graphically. Have you ever posted from a handheld device? Think you might in the future? The way the code is structured it's pretty easy. We don't rely on javascript for basic tasks, there aren't useless images everywhere, etc.
    In addition to everything I've just said, there are some fiercely practical reasons the administration interface is XHTML/CSS. It's fast. Really. Most pages are only a few K, loading extremely fast even on slow connections. Having the menu as an unordered list makes it a lot easier to style things like we do, and adds a lot of flexibility if anyone wants to make alternate stylesheets. The menu *could* be images without changing one lick of the markup. The link mike offered is a great example of some of the things that can be done to lists just by changing the CSS. Doing similar effects with images and javascript would take longer and be slower to load and execute.
    As has been said before, the better the markup is, the easier it is to style things. The more it can be leveraged. The cleaner things are when you need to make changes later. Sure there are poli-philosophical reasons for using web standards, but if those don't float your boat there are hundreds of practical reasons to use them. Ask Wired, Fast Company, ESPN, PGA...

  25. scooter
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    *claps for allusion's reply*
    I look forward to Anoymous coming forward, and showing his/her coward face to the WordPress crowd. If you have negative comments, or suggestions be sure to let us know who you are.

  26. otaku42
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    @Anonymous: Well, well, hiding behind anonymity makes it easy to word up like this, right? People cheering for the elite-ness of a tool by talking about "stupid little teenyboppers with no coding knowledge" seem to forget that they once also were exactly that. Oh, yes, sure... you've been born with all the knowledge you have now.
    WordPress is very far from being an elite tool. It's an excellent tool, not only because it's usable also for not-so-experienced users, but also for it's standard compliance. That's something that seems to have become very unpopular nowadays. But these features make WordPress being different from "yet-another-blogging-solution".
    Personally I appreciate very much the work that is being done for WordPress. There are many things that would be nice to have in WordPress, and some things that need improvement. And I try to contribute to that where possible.
    If you are willing to help in a useful way I'm sure you'll soon recognize that WordPress has a great community with people helping each other (no matter if experienced or not). But if you decide to keep trolling the way you did up to now, I suggest you should consider to silently move away and stop wasting our time.
    Just my 0.02$.

  27. WillM
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    I agree with another member's point, applaud the devs for what they're doing, make some remarks about CSS and get accused of being a troll, a coward, and told to silently move away and stop wasting your time.
    And then you get uppity because I dare to mention the word 'elite'?! Because let's face it, your not the most welcoming community I've ever come across ;)
    If I offended anyone with my comments I apologise. Sometimes my opinions are too forthright - I prefer to call them 'honest' - for some people to handle. WordPress is a great tool. Just because you get a lot of other people whining on here, please don't assume that every single new poster is out to get you.

  28. WillM
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    May I respectfully suggest that if comments are going to be judged by whether or not the poster is anonymous, anonymous posting be disabled on this forum? I've seen a lot of anonymous posts on this forum so I assumed it was ok - but if that's not the case it would be fairer to new users to force them to register.

  29. NuclearMoose
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Will,
    Just to clarify...in case it's necessary...I just feel that someone who anonymously posts several "argumentative" items seems to be hiding behind the anonymity. Anonymous posting is perfectly okay, and I think it should be an option.

  30. Orbit Juice
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    WTF is this? Judge Judy?
    "Next on Springer - HTML Geeks gone wild!!".
    Jeeze let it rest already.

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