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Twenty Twelve
[resolved] [closed] nav bar fails in IE8 (51 posts)

  1. jlehrer
    Member
    Posted 1 year ago #

    Viewed in IE8, the Twenty Twelve navigation bar collapses into a button labeled "menu." Click the button and the menu links appear vertically underneath the button. Is IE8 trying to display the mobile/responsive version of the layout?

    I've seen this problem posted in several other forums during the past few hours.

    http://wordpress.org/extend/themes/twentytwelve/

  2. almcr
    Member
    Posted 1 year ago #

    if twentytwelve were a premium theme sold in some marketplace, I could understand them not fixing this for IE8, but this is the new default theme for wordpress, which should work in most of the browsers in use today. and I would think IE8 is still fairly common, especially if you do not have windows 7+ (which I don't have).

    Al

  3. Lance Willett
    Themer
    Posted 1 year ago #

    It's an intentional design decision, older versions of IE don't support modern CSS and media queries very well. We looked at a lot of angles and solutions and nothing worked perfectly, see more discussion at http://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/21440.

  4. zota
    Member
    Posted 1 year ago #

    The large number of people on IE8 is frustrating, but is it really a deliberate decision for the main navigation menus to fail badly for more than 1 in 10 users?

    I don't remotely expect all the features of a modern theme to be supported in old IE, but I would expect the basic navigation system to work. Are there really no plans at all to make the main navigation menu of the default theme fail gracefully in unsupported browsers?

  5. mindctrl
    Member
    Posted 1 year ago #

    Given the number of people I encounter every month still running XP and IE8, it's unfortunate. It's more unfortunate that so many people still run that garbage. This is definitely fixable, as I've already seen a child theme that fixed it. But, at some point the web needs to move forward and this helps.

  6. Andrew
    Forum Moderator
    Posted 1 year ago #

    You can implement your own browser compatible menu using the walker on wp_nav_menu.

    As the theme is free, beggars can't be choosers.

  7. zota
    Member
    Posted 1 year ago #

    If this were just any random free theme in the repository, I wouldn't care.

    Since this is the new default theme, which will be pushed out to all new installs of WordPress in a few months, and it will serve as the primary model for future theme development... call me choosy.

  8. mindctrl
    Member
    Posted 1 year ago #

    @zota, the primary model for future theme dev should be to stop supporting IE8, which was released 3.5 years ago in March 2009. More importantly it is a horrible browser. I'd love to see them add a notice linking to browsehappy.com for browsers older than IE8 and below.
    <!--[if lt IE 8]><p class="chromeframe">Your browser is <em>ancient!</em> <a href="http://browsehappy.com/">Upgrade to a different browser</a> to experience this site.</p><![endif]-->

  9. jlehrer
    Member
    Posted 1 year ago #

    Should we force people to take actions on their own that will make our sites look nicer; or should we build sites for the lowest common denominator?

    Large numbers of people have no idea how to upgrade their browser, or they don't even know what a browser is. They turn on their computers and just want to look at a website. We have to keep this group in mind when we create sites.

  10. zota
    Member
    Posted 1 year ago #

    Let me clarify — I don't think IE 8 and below should be supported, and users should be encouraged/forced to upgrade. But any well-made theme should fail gracefully in unsupported browsers.

    Users stuck in an old browser for whatever reason should still be able to navigate a site. On a site with more than a handful of pages, this theme makes the site unnavigable for a major percentage of people.

  11. Shapeshifter 3
    Member
    Posted 1 year ago #

    If I remember correctly, WordPress.com has a page somewhere that shows links to all current, popular browser options. Here's my own:

    Current Browsers

    I've never understood why so many people stick with Internet Explorer anyway....maybe I'm arrogant.

  12. zota
    Member
    Posted 1 year ago #

    Most people don't choose to stick with IE 8.

    There are a lot of institutions that restrict browser upgrades, while supporting internal software optimized with crappy Microsoft features. There are a lot of technophobic people who just buy a computer and click on the icon that gives them web. It sucks. It's stupid. But browser upgrade buttons aren't going to fix this.

    Again, let me clarify. I don't want or expect full support for IE 8. And I really don't want any of my users to be on IE 8. But sadly, there are a lot of them.

    If the main nav menu is broken for a large number of people, then for the foreseeable future, we just can't use the new default theme.

  13. Andrew
    Forum Moderator
    Posted 1 year ago #

    If the main nav menu is broken for a large number of people, then for the foreseeable future, we just can't use the new default theme.

    Instead of choosing not to use Twenty Twelve, could you fix the navigation to work in IE 8 or any browser you want that isn't supported?

  14. zota
    Member
    Posted 1 year ago #

    I really like this theme, so I hope a fix is possible...

    But the theme builders are far more skilled that I'll ever be. If they've officially given up on implementing a functional menu for IE 8, I can't say I feel very optimistic about getting to use this theme.

    Oh well. Maybe this is the year all the Windows XP computers finally die all at once.
    (please oh please oh please)

  15. mssbee
    Member
    Posted 1 year ago #

    Well, I just discovered the IE 8 surprise. As much as everyone wishes that IE 8 and Windows XP would drop off the planet, it hasn't happened yet. People from all walks of life are still running Windows XP and are unable to upgrade IE beyond 8, it is a shame that this theme doesn't offer a standard menu experience for them. A designer would have to think twice before using this theme for a business site. Potential clients/buyers that are running XP would be offended or just plain baffled by the menu and move on to another easier to navigate site.

  16. almcr
    Member
    Posted 1 year ago #

    IE8 is far from dead, on the web site I maintain, over 50% of the IE users use IE8 (IE9 41%), so this is not a trivial problem as far as I am concerned. I like the new theme BUT cannot use it on my web site unless the IE8 menu situation is fixable.

    Al

  17. mindctrl
    Member
    Posted 1 year ago #

    If you're doing child themes you should be able to fix it using respond.js.

    Edit: it looks like that's being discussed here. Note the required placement of the script.

  18. almcr
    Member
    Posted 1 year ago #

    I looked at respond.js before, BUT it does not work locally in IE8, it must be on an online server to work. makes local testing difficult

    Al

  19. cestrauss
    Member
    Posted 1 year ago #

    What a _wonderful_ introduction to WordPress...NOT! I guess I figured wrong that the latest theme would be the best place to start. I have only had a hosted system to learn on for a couple of weeks, but I had not seen this kind of an error.

    Since I see the same incredibly bad menu behavior on all of the Windows 7 machines with IE9 that I have access to (several counting the VMs), in addition to the older machines/Vms with BOTH IE7 and IE8, so this is a failure to support Internet Explorer properly at all. With a menu that inludes many pages and child pages, IE displays my menu as a 25-item vertical list! That is simply not usable.
    http://www.genealogydentontexas.org/

    Yes it works fine in Safari and Firefox, which tripped me up since I was developing mostly on iMacs, but the vast majority of the genealogists my web site will serve use Windows XP through 7 and don't install third party browsers. I need some sort of a hack to fix this, or I not only need to dump the theme (which I have been waiting for since nothing else I looked at seemed to fit my needs), but maybe WordPress as well.

    Somebody please help me out here - someone who has actually fixed this bug successfully. We cannot go live with the site behaving like this! I have pulled the plug on enterprise application deployments over less severe problems than this.

    End Rant - sorry - been awake for several nights doing this after 3 days of ITIL certification training - not a healthy combination.

  20. playing2012
    Member
    Posted 1 year ago #

    @Shapeshifter 3

    You page don't even list the correct list of current browsers! You have got IE10 as current while in fact it is not!

    I am talking about this page: http://toolbox-4-websites.com/browser-updates/current-browsers

    When will you be updating it?

  21. A Trac ticket was created this morning covering this very issue: http://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/22044.

    And this patch enqueues Respond.js for IE8 if you want it now: http://core.trac.wordpress.org/attachment/ticket/22044/22044.2.patch

    "... the default theme isn’t trying to be an end-all-be-all theme. It won’t please everyone." from @lancewillett's post on the themes make blog, Why Default Themes Change Each Year. I encourage you to read it.

  22. Shapeshifter 3
    Member
    Posted 1 year ago #

    playing2012,

    I forgot to mention that I am running the Windows 8 Release Preview: Build 8400 on my laptop. Internet Explorer 10 is the default browser in that version. If you are running an older version of Windows, you will get an older, compatible version of Internet Explorer when you click on my link. When I click on it, access to IE 10 shows up. Microsoft tailors the IE down link depending upon which version of Windows each person is using.

    I just tried to list the most recent "Stable" version of each browser. Google Chrome has 4 separate versions: Stable, Beta, Developer, and Canary. I think Firefox has 3 versions, and Opera only 2. I sometimes make the assumption that others have the same interest in browsers that I do. Evidently, I'm wrong.

    You know, if anyone would take the time to look at how much effort the Core Developers went through to produce this theme, you would be impressed. I admire them for what they have accomplished. Don't kick a gift-horse in the mouth. If you don't like the theme: choose another.

    Windows XP is over a decade old, and Microsoft has always supported backwards compatibility to retain their corporate and governmental clients. At the same time, they have received loud condemnation from those that wanted them to keep up with the most modern market advances.

    Do you want the WordPress Core Developers to always look behind them waiting for their customers to catch up, OR would you prefer that they constantly look towards the future.

    I prefer the second choice.

  23. mssbee
    Member
    Posted 1 year ago #

    I had a very humbling experience regarding "moving forward". Three years ago, I was hired by a nonprofit organization that provides at risk youth a supportive environment to get their GED and learn employment skills.

    I redesigned their website and decided not to even worry about coding for IE6. Then after the site had been up for a month, I checked the site's Google Analytics stats and found the 50% of the users were accessing the site from IE6. I realized then that many of their students and potential students didn't have access to the latest and the greatest technology. Of course, I promptly added IE6 support to the site.

    We can always choose another theme, but this is the new theme that will appear with a new WP installation with the next upgrade. So it is more than a gift theme. It represents the face of WP and best practices in coding. Best practices in my opinion, shouldn't leave such a great percent of users behind.

  24. Andrew
    Forum Moderator
    Posted 1 year ago #

    I hope this theme will push forward technology, force old-fashioned users to keep-up with the evolving web and provide empathy for developers who are still developing for old browsers.

  25. cestrauss
    Member
    Posted 1 year ago #

    I'm afraid that any application that is released today that does not support today's technology (that would be IE9) is a mistake. Usually I have these discussions with people pushing out apps that ONLY work in IE9 and leave Safari and Firefox out to dry. I understand dropping support for outdated browsers, but IE9 is NOT outdated, and cannot be treated as such.

    The acid test is that the Twenty Twelve menus do not work properly in IE9, therefore they must be considered defective - and that needs to be corrected - fast!

  26. Sergey Biryukov
    WordPress Dev
    Posted 1 year ago #

    Twenty Twelve menus do not work properly in IE9

    IE 9 shows the full menu for me in both Windows Vista and Windows 7. If it doesn't for you, perhaps you have Compatibility View enabled.

  27. mindctrl
    Member
    Posted 1 year ago #

    IE is finicky and I've seen it using Compatibility Mode when it really shouldn't be. I believe it's possible to override that by adding the following line to the header, which tells IE to use its latest rendering engine.

    <!-- [if IE]> <meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=Edge"/> <! [endif]-->

  28. zota
    Member
    Posted 1 year ago #

    Oh yeah. Compatibility Mode will kill the menu too, won't it? *sigh*

    As I understand it, the meta tag has to go immediately after <head> and it shouldn't be wrapped in a conditional, because... well, because it's IE, so who really knows.

    I have to point out that in the past, using the default theme was recommended as a troubleshooting tool to eliminate as many confusing variables as possible. As it stands, I would never consider using this theme in a troubleshooting situation.

  29. Ov3rfly
    Member
    Posted 1 year ago #

    1. Obviously nobody really tested Twenty Twelve on "real life pc-systems" at all. Only one week before 1.0 release I downloaded 0.9 and spotted clearly visible layout problems after a 5 minutes test in Firefox and Chrome, didn't do any tests in IE, otherwise there would have been more bugs in tracker...

    The IE disaster now confirms this assumption.

    2. A responsive design should be written completely the other way round. Default look should be available without media queries, with maybe some conditionals for older browsers (which also can be added by third party). "Narrow" look should be done with media queries.

    These two major problems make the really nice looking Twenty Twelve (props to the designer) in the current version unfortunately a total failure which will also give WordPress itself a bad name.

    Many big companies are "lightyears" away from migration to Windows 7 and run mostly XP on their desktops, maybe even with IE7. My various stats have over 50% IE7/IE8. This is not a problem with Twenty Ten and Twenty Eleven (and the child themes which are based on them). But all these users are basically kicked out with current Twenty Twelve if it ships like this as default with next WordPress.

  30. flick
    Member
    Posted 1 year ago #

    Having worked at for a couple of NHS Trusts before, I can also confirm that XP and IE 6/7(and at a push 8) are still very much in use; the NHS as a whole is certainly one of the largest employers in the UK.

    And as a Windows XP user on an old computer, I get by on Chrome and Firefox but sadly can't upgrade to beyond IE8.

    I love the new Twenty Twelve theme and I am very glad that at least response.js can come to the rescue in this instance (not tried it yet myself but this is my understanding from this thread and Trac?) - this coming from someone who decided to skip past Twenty Eleven since Twenty Ten was my first love ;P

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