WordPress.org

Ready to get started?Download WordPress

Forums

The template system is horrible. (29 posts)

  1. triple7
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    It is the worst (beside b2) template system I have seen in any blogging software. I really wish WP move away from the old b2 system and move to a more simpiler system, like Movable Type. Also, the way index.php is coded is also very confusing.A zillion CSS properties is also no fun to edit. Please WP, make a better template system.

  2. Root
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Heck we want more styling hooks in index php not less.

  3. NuclearMoose
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    triple7,
    It's true that for some, the WP template can be challenging, but I would not characterise it as being the worst template system out there, and believe me, I've used a few.
    There is always room for improvement, and constructive comments and suggestions are always welcome. I don't think that there are actually a zillion CSS properties in the template; the number is probably far less. One thing that WP does allow, is that with that CSS, you can do one of two things: leave it as is, and let the default property values style you page, or, use the properties to have total control over your page. It's actually the best of both worlds, since you can do as much or as little as you like.
    What are your suggestions for making the index.php file less confusing? What specific things do you see as being part of a better template system? My version of a good system is likely different from every other user in the WP community. I'd sure be interested in hearing your ideas.
    Thanks for posting. If you have any questions about any part of WP, don't hesitate to ask!
    Craig.

  4. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Have you looked at wp.php? It's a basic template without the li ids and all that jazz. If you know html or have a good editor you can add as much or as little as you like to it.

  5. mel
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    "What specific things do you see as being part of a better template system?"
    CREATE NEW TEMPLATE!
    I don't particularly care for FTP'ing everything "new". For example, I'm writing a new php include, and as it stands now, I need to save that to my computer, then FTP it up to my server. I would much rather go into WP, press "create new template" or something similar, then paste my code in the box and click save. And there it is, all ready to go. I use the "template manager" and I thought that would help in this, but it doesn't. While it gives a much better display option for existing templates, the ability to create new templates is just not there :( I searched for this on the boards and in the wiki, but haven't found a solution. I "assume" there is none, but if I'm wrong, please please let me know. thanks!

  6. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Despite the fact that I don't agree with anything else that you say Mel, for when I'm not at my own PC a 'Create New Template' button would be good.

  7. hanni
    Volunteer Moderator
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Sorry, the above post was me, I forgot to log in!

  8. Millennium
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Why are CSS properties "no fun" to edit anyway? Just edit the CSS; by doing so you can emulate pretty much any layout you want. The CSS Zen Garden shows how much you can do using only CSS, with no changes to the HTML at all.

  9. lstelie
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    A zillion CSS properties is also no fun to edit.
    Hello
    A zillion CSS properties would me make WP a bad template system, but an excellent one......
    And bay the way i'm not sure CSS has been designed mainly to be fun :-)

  10. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 10 years ago #

    The CSS Zen Garden shows what people who are great at CSS can do using only CSS and it's not much help to us lesser mortals who've only just about mastered HTML. I was thinking about moving away from Blogger but the requirement to learn CSS has really put me off WordPress. I don't have time to learn that, I just want to blog :(

  11. duches77
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    You might want to try taking the call to the CSS layout file out of the index file and then you can update through the WP Admin section using the template editor in there. If you feel comfortable enough with CSS, just type in between the <style> tags instead of the call to the wp-layout file. That should eliminate the need for FTP. If you're not comfortable with CSS, then you can dump the <style> tags and what's in them all together and go with what your comfortable with. Yes, I know... dumping CSS is a bad thing to discuss here, but, being new to it myself, I understand that it's hard to learn a new thing when you've got a dozen others on your plate to worry about... especially if learning CSS is only to assist in continuing a hobby you don't get paid for.

  12. Root
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Well all you need do is install WordPress and just get started. Everything else is optional. Sometimes I do not know what people mean by *only CSS*. The styling rules need to go somewhere. If they are not in the CSS they need to be inline. In either case without your rule you do not get the styling. That is not to do with CSS particularly. That is the way web sites work. A blogger service might suit you more. Bu, we in the meantime, in the 20,000 or so WP users are having a lot of fun :)

  13. Millennium
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    The CSS Zen Garden shows what people who are great at CSS can do using only CSS and it's not much help to us lesser mortals who've only just about mastered HTML.

    I've often wondered if people are learning Web technologies backwards nowadays. Perhaps CSS should be learned first, and then HTML? It would probably reinforce the concept of semantics much better.
    Of course, in order to do that you need some kind of "training wheels" structure language. Perhaps an extremely minimal set of HTML would work for this?

    I was thinking about moving away from Blogger but the requirement to learn CSS has really put me off WordPress. I don't have time to learn that, I just want to blog :(

    You can learn the basics of CSS in an afternoon. Once you've got that the rest is easily picked up as you need it.

  14. Root
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Tabbing is a *very bad thing*. On certain types of application which can and frequently are used for text editing like emacs etc they cause chaos. Space by all means. But not tab.

  15. duches77
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    http://www.visibone.com
    He has some very helpful reference cards that I've been using to help me learn. Granted, I can code a lot of things in HTML from memory, but I haven't quote gotten there in CSS, yet. The cards helped a LOT... and I'm a major CSS newbie. There's still more advanced things out there I'd like to figure out with it, but that will have to come when I have more free time.
    (By the way... anyone know what free time is like? ~_^ lol)

  16. redneck
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Tabbing is a *very bad thing*. On certain types of application which can and frequently are used for text editing like emacs etc they cause chaos. Space by all means. But not tab.

    I used to feel the same way, but then was exposed to some coding professionals who allowed me to see the light.
    Right now, index.php has some tabbing, but it is not consistent and it is not complete. If tabbing was such a bad thing, there shouldn't be any tabs at all in index.php.
    I do not worry too much about EMACS, in the same way that no one here, as far as I can tell, is very concerned about Lynx support.

  17. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Yes, I knew I would get lectured about not learning CSS. I know a little bit, like what you need for taking underlines off links and coloring the scrollbar, but separating the CSS file from the HTML is too confusing to me so I will try duches77's suggestion and if I can't get on with that go back to Blogger. I just wish Blogger had a Links Manager built in to let me manage my blogroll but maybe that's the price I have to pay for being able to make my own template.

  18. Millennium
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    I know a little bit, like what you need for taking underlines off links and coloring the scrollbar, but separating the CSS file from the HTML is too confusing to me...

    Why? This is an honest question. HTML for structure, CSS for presentation: how is this more confusing than mashing them together?

  19. PastaBagel
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    THEY CALL ME PASTABAGEL
    A zillion CSS tags makes WordPress less difficult to style, because you have more precision, a more precise way to identify the elements of the page.
    On the other hand, there are content systems that have no CSS at all. Just take a look at PHP Nuke. Go ahead and view the source of that page and tell me if you think less CSS is easier.
    THEY CALL ME PASTABAGEL AND I'VE ACTUALLY BEEN THROUGH THAT SOURCE CODE.

  20. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 10 years ago #

    To Millennium: I just find it easier to work on one file than two. It makes more sense to me to have one file for a template instead of two. In Blogger you can just paste your template HTML into the editing page, republish and it's done. You can use as much or as little CSS as you like. I'm not saying that's how WordPress should be because you obviously really like your system, it's just not for me.
    I've also seen some threads about how you can't use tables with WordPress. So thanks for all your help but I am going to stay with Blogger and use Blogrolling to manage my links. Sorry for wasting everyone's time :)

  21. codergurl
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    You can use tables with WP. It's just not "recommended". I'm sorry that your experience did not turn out as planned. ;)

  22. Millennium
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    To Millennium: I just find it easier to work on one file than two. It makes more sense to me to have one file for a template instead of two. In Blogger you can just paste your template HTML into the editing page, republish and it's done.

    What are you talking about? Despite the fact that the "template" is HTML, that's really a misnomer. You only need to work on one file to alter the look of your site unless you're really doing something drastic: the CSS. Leave the HTML alone; you don't need to edit it unless you're using plug-ins or have some kind of fundamental design change to make, and even if you have a fundamental design change there are pre-made HTML "templates" for the most common patterns.

  23. moisie
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Primarily, editing index.php shouldn't really be about the design at all, it and any other html should only really be edited if you want to alter the content. Your content can then be styled via your css. If you're editing your index.php in order to provide extra/different hooks for your css (3 column layouts etc) then that's fine but to me that implies you have enough knowledge of css in the first place to justify needing those changes.
    It does kind of irritate me when so many people moan about WordPress being difficult to style, it's not WordPress at all. Admittedly a person may find css tricky at first but it's not WordPress' fault, WordPress tries to do things properly, once you grasp the principles of css then it becomes much easier than the non-css equivelant, although as with anything the more you practise the more you learn and the better you get at it.
    Similarly when people say that you can't use tables with wordpress, that's rubbish, you can use what you want. Why should WordPress deliberately degrade itself in order to propogate backwards methods of doing things? Having the css in a seperate file is how it should be, for one it makes offering multiple styles much easier.
    It strikes me as odd that so many people want to use WordPress but don't want to bother learning the basics of how to use the fundamental tools and practices that it utilises (I'm not implying people learn php or anything that drastic). If someone doesn't want to use css or "proper" html then as previously stated there are other solutions (like blogger), if you want the advanced functions of WordPress surely it's worth putting a small bit of effort into learning how to get the most from it? And of course css isn't just for wordpress, it will help someone to build the rest of their site as well.
    Rant over.

  24. davidprince
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    I think that if you spent a weekend (or even two hours a night for a week, one hour a night for two weeks, etc.) reading online tutorials/articles on CSS and playing around with wp-layout.css for your test blog, you would know more than enough CSS to style your wp blog however you wish. You will have also accumulated an additional skill.
    The best thing about learning these days is that when you run into problems you can't solve yourself there are hundreds of experts on various forums willing to help you out.

  25. Root
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    And I might have missed out a couple but I am sure it wasn't a zillion. No way :)

  26. sunshine
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Um.
    1. Chmod ("change permissions") index.php to 777 (also known as "drwxrwxrwx").
    2. Take styles out of .css, put in style tags in index.php.
    3. Save.
    Now editable through template manager, just like Blogger.
    What's hard to get there? :)

  27. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 10 years ago #

    if you thing styling wordpress is hard, try drupal or expression engine
    i personally am gratefully for the simplicity of wordpress and the abundance to open source wp-ready stylesheets (alex king's repository and style switcher for example). with other blogging or cms tools, you are lucky if you get a few skins/themes/styles.
    having so many ready to go really makes it easier to understand both css styling for the novice, and the structure of index.php. really ... even if you're intimidated by css, just try some styles-- compare them, and read the code. you can learn a lot this way, and it's more fun than your typical css tutorial... the logic of classes applied to wordpress elements is already there -- all you have to do is tinker, browser-test and validate:>)
    as said above, you needn't mess with the html or php! be grateful for this -- many tools feign separation of style and content but then blur this.

  28. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 10 years ago #

    huh, interesting points made about open source style collaboration here:
    http://www.atthe404.com/blog/index.php?p=142
    i think i follow but some of the fine points escape me.
    still while it may be true that you need to tweak the index to really customize your blog's design, my point remains that you don't have to get something quite personal up and running.
    hell if ur too lazy to mess around cough it up and pay somebody else to like blogmoxie.com
    what's better about mt's templating btw?

  29. Magus
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Okay, I've used MoveableType for close to three years. I've written plugins for MT. I've tweaked and tortured MT. I *know* MT, okay?
    In less than a month, I learned more about WordPress and created more for it than I did in three *years* working with MT. How? Simple. It makes *sense*! The templates and plugins actually make *sense* internally to the code. MT always was trying to hide that stuff and make it hard to find and figure out the backend process that made it run. That's the downside of corporate development. They were trying to protect their investment.
    Sorry, but WP is a dream to use thanks to the ease with which I can modify it and change the look-and-feel with a few simple changes in the stylesheet. (And, yes, if you don't know stylesheets yet, you have no idea what you're missing! Oh, the ease with which I can now control my entire site!)
    *ahem* Sorry, just had to get that out.
    I feel better now.
    Thanks,
    Jim aka Magus

Topic Closed

This topic has been closed to new replies.

About this Topic

Tags

No tags yet.