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Tableless Calendar (48 posts)

  1. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Wow! That table has always bothered me. Nice work in finding the site. What we now need to understand is cross platform behaviour.

  2. OperaManiac
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    my 2 cents.
    tables are and should be used for tabular content.
    and calendar in my opinion is a tabular content... making it css based will be messy to say the least...
    but that's my opinion ofcourse.
    and i do remember someone comin up with a tableless calendar on this forum before :)

  3. WillM
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    You know, I always excused the calendar table with the same arguement as Susubh, but if Eric Meyer thinks it should be CSS, go for it!

  4. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Heck. Not Eric Meyer ;)

  5. Dougal Campbell
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Eric Meyer has never said that you shouldn't use tables for a calendar. He implemented a table-less calendar as a proof-of-concept, and nothing more. He has said as much.
    The best way to future-proof a web site is to use semantic markup, especially for main layout. For tabular data, tables are the correct semantics. I posted on my blog on this subject about a year ago.

  6. alienvenom
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Dougal, I still prefer a tableless calendar.
    I'm going to go ahead and see if I can make one, and I'll go ahead and post it up when I am done.
    Wouldn't it be really neat to advertise that WordPress is one of the few weblog scripts that is completely CSS tableless?

  7. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Douglas just because you said on your site that tables may be used for calendars does not mean that you are *right*. If any of us here, and our friend may be leading the way; want to max the css what better example than a tableless calendar. Heck don't discourage the guy. The css pencils may be *useless but as a conceptual starting point they were awesome. I am working on a collapsible head graphic. @alienvenom: I say have at it and the very best of luck.

  8. OperaManiac
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Opera shift-f11 handles the example well...
    lets see what gets developed here! :)

  9. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Whackos and zealots! Eek!! I was just going to ask how Opera (now upgraded
    I understand) was going to handle this. Is a calendar really "tabular data". Or is it just a calendar? More importantly IMHO regardless of it's inherent merits it is a good demonstrator of laying out divs/spans in a tabular form. That may have wider applications.

  10. tcervo
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    I think you answered your own question ;-)

    "Is a calendar really "tabular data". Or is it just a calendar?"

    "...it is a good demonstrator of laying out divs/spans in a tabular form."

    IMHO, calendars *are* tabular data. They consist of rows and columns, and those relationships have meaning. You can read down a column to get the dates of each Monday of the month, for example. Or, you could read across a row to find the dates in a particular week. The data is relational, and tabular.
    I do think it's a good exercise to see if you can replicate a calendar in CSS...the learning process would be great. I just wouldn't use it in production.

  11. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 10 years ago #

    tecervo: this is no fun at all unless we break things!

  12. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Secretly I am a bit of an Opera fan / user myself although I am currently on FF. I just know you get a lot of stick. Its just fallen behind a bit recently. Any one who is not using The Company's products must be OK in my book.

  13. OperaManiac
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    godfather=billgates
    shhh....

  14. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Sir William Gates please.

  15. davidchait
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    I implemented a tableless calendar something like 2 months back. If someone wants to point me to a good location on the Wiki, I'd be glad to make it available (it's a revision of the get_calendar code, to return either a table or tableless version).
    I've since removed the calendar from my public pages (only logged in admins see it), as it took up too much space and wasn't useful functionality for my site.
    -d
    http://www.chait.net

  16. alienvenom
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    davidchait, do you think you could send me your version of the get_calendar(); function?
    My contat information is on my website: http://www.dogtoe.com/contact.php

  17. awh
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Using span class as a replacement for tables? That's no better than the font tag.
    Tables are bad for non-tabular content, like page layout. Tables are good for tabular content, like calendars.

  18. alienvenom
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    When the rest of the page doesn't use tables at all, and there's a badge that says CSS tableless on it, it's kind of pointless to use a table for a calendar, even if it's "tabular" content.
    I want a tableless calendar!

  19. WillM
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Anyway, I'm not 100% convinced that a calendar is 'tabular data' in any sense other than layout. It's really just a list of dates, isn't it? It's not giving you any information that you couldn't get from an ul-formatted daily archive.

  20. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 10 years ago #

    I am with WillM here. It is nearer a list I reckon. The root of this issue, is that we want to lay out a list in tabular form. That does not make the list tabular data. In my book anyway!

  21. OperaManiac
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    calendar has rows for weeks and columns for days. now what does that imply?

  22. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 10 years ago #

    Just because text is traditionally laid out in tabular form does not mean that the text is in fact tabular data !!! :-)

  23. Dougal Campbell
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    If a calendar is just a list of dates (and not tabular data), then the columns won't matter. So you might as well get rid of the headers for 'Sun', 'Mon', 'Tues', etc. And it won't matter if there aren't exactly 7 days per row in your output.
    Right?
    I'm not trying tell anyone that they shouldn't do a tableless calendar. I'm just saying that there's nothing inherently wrong with using a table for a calendar. It is tabular data.
    Also, using a table for a calendar doesn't invalidate the idea of a tableless site. It's using tables for the overall page layout that's a bad idea.

  24. OperaManiac
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    yeap. innovation is ok. but calling a calendar a non tabular data... whew!

  25. tcervo
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    What dougal said...and others before him, and probably more down the road...
    To further illustrate his first point, here's March 2004 as a list:
    Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10,...31
    Sure, you *could* represent it as a *complete* list, but the extra redundancy is nuts:
    Monday March 1: 2004, Tuesday March 2: 2004, Wednesday March 3: 2004, Thursday March 4: 2004...etc.
    Since this is, in fact, tabular data, we could instead put the year and month in the caption, have a single header row for the days of the week,...you know, just like a calendar. Doing a calendar as an exercise in CSS is great, but insisting it should be used for WP to be "tableless" just doesn't hold water.
    As for the "CSS Tableless" thing, as long as tables are used for data and not presentation, the badge of honor still stands.

  26. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 10 years ago #

    I like to think and I hope I am right that this is slightly tongue in cheek. There is no answer. And I would not want to get into a wrestling match. Certainly not with tcervo. But a calendar is surely two lists. Days and dates. If I display text in Excel, one word to a cell does that alter the text into tabular data? Or is it text displayed in a tabular form.? Incidentally calendars frequently need empty "cells" that contain no data at all.:-)

  27. tcervo
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    True to an extent (no wrestling match intended), but it's really more than just two lists...as those two are cross referenced, making it a bunch of lists. There's a list of every date for a month that falls on a Monday, every date that falls on a Tuesday, etc. There's, then, also every date that occurs in the first week, second week, third week...There's also a list that tells you what day of the week any particular date occurs on...What's date does the 2nd Saturday fall on? How about the fourth Sunday, if even one exists? etc...It's a tabular way of displaying a whole bunch of information...many different views all in one neat package. It's not practical to do that if it were just lists. Simply putting text into Excel cells doesn't make it tabular data...there has to be a relationship...right?

  28. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 10 years ago #

    I give up!

  29. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 10 years ago #

    tabulated data should be in a table or ppl without the ability to use CSS will find it makes no sense at all...
    but as an experiment, anything goes!

  30. alienvenom
    Member
    Posted 10 years ago #

    We stopped using <font> tags long ago because we have CSS to replace them and they are "depreciated."
    <tables> should be depreciated as well. Who cares about the n00bs who don't want to upgrade their browser to a CSS-supportive one.

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