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Excitement Over 1.3's Theme Engine (35 posts)

  1. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 9 years ago #

    I created a fresh install of the latest nightly (9-22-04) and found in the administration control panel the "Presentation" link. I thought themes would be a cool feature, but didn't realize how cool until I found a Kubrick version prepared for the 1.3alpha. It was as simple as uploading the files to the wp-content/theme directory and activating the theme through the site administration control panel...WordPress automatically recognized that the theme was available for activation.
    This is going to be a great addition to WordPress when version 1.3 is finally released. I suspect any theme created right now will run into the possibility of being broken by the time 1.3 is finalized...but I can't help but entertain the idea that all the templates WordPress users like to use--Gemini or Kubrick, etc (not to mention new templates)--will be available as themes once 1.3 is finalized.
    I can't wait to hear the details on how to create themes.

  2. Root
    Member
    Posted 9 years ago #

    Less than a month ago Matt was denying publicly that any part of Kubrick was going to be in WP at all.

  3. Root
    Member
    Posted 9 years ago #

    Well it would be useful if theme developers were informed what the API architecture is so that they can plan ahead. Kubrick is the only one because nobody else knows what a *theme* is meant to consist of what files it uses and what the conventions are. And if the devs had dealt with the real issues in the thread from hell instead of flaming the participants we would not be in this mess.

  4. NuclearMoose
    Member
    Posted 9 years ago #

    Root,
    THE HORSE IS DEAD.

  5. Root
    Member
    Posted 9 years ago #

    Meaning WHAT ?

  6. Root
    Member
    Posted 9 years ago #

    And NM that is link to someone *upgrading* to WP 1.2. Cool huh ?

  7. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 9 years ago #

    Root, the theme was not put together by the Kubrick author nor was it packaged with WordPress. Obviously the person who put the theme together knows a bit about where WP is in the developement cycle....but anyone can that follows the Dev mailing list. Don't be defensive....the theme engine will make make your templates just as available as the Kubrick theme.
    http://binarybonsai.com/archives/2004/09/19/kubrick-for-other-systems/
    The great thing about the theme engine is that it doesn't require the current base template to be broken....It replaces everything is one theme swoop. IMO, its the best alternative that should make everyone happy.
    NuclearMoose, thanks for the link.

  8. Root
    Member
    Posted 9 years ago #

    Well sadly BB is borked at the moment so I cant read the link. There is nothing defensive about it. Theme devs of all hues want to know what the architecture is. for 1.3. Where is that info published ?

  9. mog
    Member
    Posted 9 years ago #

    I think the idea of themes is great cause it would solve the problem of wanting to vary the structure of the index page as with skins one has to keep it the same or add in a whole bunch of divs not called by the different stylesheets as is done at CSSZenGarden. And of course themes allows for adding other pages as Kubrick does. I did notice that they are only changable via the admin area which is a disadvantage if you want people to be able to skin it to their liking.
    I am wondering how themes works with mod rewrite. I am using 1.3-alpha-3 9/21 nightly and my skins work with one caveat, sometimes when I go from http://www.mindofmog.net to mindofmog.net the old skin is called, persistent cookies that won't go away.
    Might try it on a test site to get the feel of it.
    Don't know what a theme is, download b2evolution and take a peek in their skins directory. Note the similarity to Kubrick, a stylesheet and whatever files you want in your theme, as few or as many as you want. Yes, you have to get into the php designing one if you want to have fun but old skins should work too.

  10. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 9 years ago #

    In looking at the Kubrick files, I don't think there's any special hooks or anything needed to get a theme working....except that the files be loaded in a sub directory named for the theme.....ie, wp-content/themes/mytheme/(files)
    What I would do is create a test install. Break one of your templates into the four parts for the index, header, footer and sidebar using the 1.3alpha php and see if it'll load. I bet it will.
    I would be seriously interested to know if it does.

  11. mog
    Member
    Posted 9 years ago #

    Thanks. Sweet, I must redo my footer into sidebar and footer then play a bit. This will be fun.

  12. winnie
    Member
    Posted 9 years ago #

    Kubrick is a great theme, however, all the hard-coding makes the translation into other languages terribly difficult. Is that going to change too?

  13. Ryan Boren
    WordPress Dev
    Posted 9 years ago #

    The theme code has been discussed a bit on the hackers list and on IRC. We haven't published anything about the architecture becuase we're not ready for everyone to jump on it and then complain that it doesn't work. ;-) Of course, the code is there for all to see and many have already worked out how to create themes. Several people from the hackers list have been helping to shake out the bugs. I turned Kubrick into my reference theme because it exercises the limits of the new template and theme code. I also happen to like it. A Kubrick theme has not been committed to CVS. It is simply my testing vehicle. I have toyed with the idea of committing it to CVS and making the theme manager say "I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave" whenever you try to switch to another theme. You know, just to give everyone something to talk about.
    So, basically, a theme is a style.css and an index.php in a subdirectory of wp-content/themes. How you organize it from there is up to you. You can include() whatever you want. If your theme provides certain special templates such as archive.php, category.php, author.php, etc. those will be loaded for an archive query, a category query, and an author query, respectively. Or, you can handle everything in index.php and use is_archive(), is_category(), is_author(), etc. As the theme author, it's up to you.
    Look at the bottom of wp-blog-header.php in the "Template redirection" block to see which templates are loaded for each query type.
    If your theme is a stylesheet only theme that uses the template from another theme, you need provide only style.css. Via the theme header (which resembles the plugin header) you can point to the template required by your stylesheet.
    As the theming matures, more details will be forthcoming. In the meantime, check out the code in wp-blog-header and in themes.php and admin-functions.php, if you are so inclined. Look at the Kubrick for 1.3 theme as an example. Or, you can spin conspiracy theories. Whatever you prefer. ;-)

  14. Root
    Member
    Posted 9 years ago #

    Well I have been reading the hackers list for quite some time. And I have always had the feeling that we were at the butt end of an undisclosed private dialogue which was taking place somewhere else. The last I heard Matt had some plans but wasnt sharing them. This is making it very difficult for people supporting WP with alternatives themes, styles, interfaces whatever. There has been do dialogue.

  15. NuclearMoose
    Member
    Posted 9 years ago #

  16. Ryan Boren
    WordPress Dev
    Posted 9 years ago #

    The code is out there. People who wish to contribute and enter dialogue are already doing so. Remember, we are very much in alpha, so it is mainly those who follow CVS and contribute code who are involving themselves. It is a self-selecting community.
    All plans and goals are here. If you want to work on any of those things, have at it. Submit your work to the hackers list and/or Matt.

  17. timeistight
    Member
    Posted 9 years ago #

    Thanks for your detailed explanation, rboren. I think themes are going to be a terrific addition to wp. Great work, all!

  18. Matt Mullenweg
    Troublemaker
    Posted 9 years ago #

    Less than a month ago Matt was denying publicly that any part of Kubrick was going to be in WP at all.

    I don't remember saying that, but I do remember people attacking WordPress, myself, and Kubrick because of confusion as to what elements were being incorporated. The theme system, which is relatively new, did not exist at the time of the previous thread though aspects of it had come up in previous brainstorms. Documentation surrounding how to implement themes will begin when everything is finalized. Discussion about the development of the theme system belongs on the hackers list. I'm not sure what you mean about private plans or no dialogue. There has been lots of dialogue, the code is all out in the open, and the changes already in place make things like your Gemini template a million times easier to package and distribute.
    Mog, thanks for your comments. WordPress themes don't use cookies so maybe your switching issues are with some other code?
    Anonymous, the way the files are divided isn't final yet and won't be required. 1.2 template files should work just fine with a single line change to the way comments are called.
    Winnie, any code included with WordPress will include full localization hooks allowing for complete translation into most any language.

    I have toyed with the idea of committing it to CVS and making the theme manager say "I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave" whenever you try to switch to another theme. You know, just to give everyone something to talk about.

    ...and that's why I love Ryan. :)

  19. Muffinboy
    Member
    Posted 9 years ago #

    Thanks for the info Ryan! It's good to know that archive.php, category.php, etc. can simply be part of the theme by dropping them in the theme directory.
    I'm hacking around a new theme myself and I need just one quick confirmation: Is a theme's index.php also going to into the theme directory? Meaning: is the theme's alternative index.php going to be called instead of the vanilla index.php when present? I found this hard to deduct from the current nightly code :)

  20. Root
    Member
    Posted 9 years ago #

    Muffinboy - I am glad you are here. How do we get a theme running. Clearly opening a themes dir and putting in a dir with an index will not activate in the presentation page. So how is it activated?. I just can not get my head around this. Does ANYBODY know. ?

  21. unoamigo
    Member
    Posted 9 years ago #

    It amazes me that people are demanding answers and how to descriptions on in development software. It wouldn't be fair to even begin to describe 1.3 as beta ready.
    Let the devs keep working on it rather than spending lots of time trying to answer everyones questions on *how* to use it. If your wanting to play with it now, I think it's safe to say that you should be prepared to spend a good amount of time digging around and learning. And then, all that work might be for naught because the devs could decide on a better way to do something or can features and modifications alltogether.
    On the other hand, it would be nice if the CVS notes had a little more detail to them. Many of them are pretty well useless. If Matt and Ryan would be so kind to spend a couple minutes typing up notes to their commits, I sure would be grateful. Might also help to curb some of this anger floating around...
    This is turning into chaos, everyone is wanting to run 1.3 now and know how to use it. It's crazy because it has been this way since 1.2 was a release candidate. Long before a single line of code was even written for 1.3.
    Can't we all just relax a just little bit?

  22. Root
    Member
    Posted 9 years ago #

    Well that seems a good idea. But from where I am standing there is a growing feeling that the basic set up is pretty much buttoned down already.

  23. unoamigo
    Member
    Posted 9 years ago #

    Lets just wait a bit and see where it goes. It's awfully preemptive to get excited/angry/upset about something in development.
    If the release candidate comes out and things are really borked, then I'm sure Matt & Ryan will be quite happy to take 1.3 back into development and work on getting 1.3 right the first time - instead of with 1.4.

  24. Root
    Member
    Posted 9 years ago #

    Well the thing is the cat is now half out of the bag. What some of us who are interested in theme design would like to do is at least try it now so we can give feedback before it is too late. I personally can think of at least one alternative structure but I can't articulate it because I am not sure what the current model does or doesn't do, and I cant be certain that it doesnt already have the functionality which I believe is important. Many other folks might possibly also feel the same way. Surely you understand that ?

  25. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 9 years ago #

    I agree with unoamigo: At this stage the devs are obviously still throwing ideas around and when they're ready to involve the rest of us, I'm sure they will. If they want feedback, they'll ask for it :)
    I would be very surprised to see an official release before Xmas, so that will give everyone plenty of time to figure out how any new features might work.

  26. Ryan Boren
    WordPress Dev
    Posted 9 years ago #

    Feedback is appreciated from anyone who wants to look over the code and try it out. In fact, we're getting plenty of feedback from those who are working with the code, and we have incorporated many patches and suggestions.
    There will be plenty of time for everyone to look over this and every other new feature before the release of 1.3. I'll say it again, "We are in ALPHA." There is no need for all of the hand-wringing.
    It's possible that the themes feature might not even make it into 1.3. So, everybody chill. This tiresome speculation and conspiracy mongering is silly. It's also de-motivating to those who are trying to improve WordPress. I sometimes dread committing new stuff to CVS because of the paranoid ranting that shows up on the forums and in my inbox as a result.

  27. unoamigo
    Member
    Posted 9 years ago #

    Root,
    I understand that. The thing is that their design is not complete. So you can't really tell what the current model is, what it does or will do. Let alone really try it out yet since all of the code simply is not written yet.
    "Too late" is simply once it is released. Before then it will hit release candidate, I think at that point it is fair game to give the design a good ringer. At that point in time it is also fair to expect the developers to articulate deeper on the points and capabilities of the design. This could even happen before the first release candidate.
    Now if you want to articulate your own model, that is fair too. It could be very helpful. You don't really need to see their full model before doing so. It's more than cool to spell out how you think a theme system could be created. It's not a waste of your effort to articulate something that already exists. It means other people reading your design will understand it better. If it coincides with what exists or what is in the works, then that gives Matt and Ryan a pat on the back.
    At the moment though, everyone is tearing into the "design" which is neither fully developed or articulated publicly.
    I can see wanting to try to save some time by hashing out more of the design with other people - such as ourselves, before coding. The problem however becomes that when you put too many minds into something then everything slows down. More time is spent defending and articulating bits and pieces of the design model than is necessary. Especially when in many cases either idea will work equally well.
    Now, I think I'm going to head back to my tent, type up some WordPress entries, and if I still have a smidgen of power - install the latest nightly. ;-)

  28. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 9 years ago #

    I'm going to get blasted for this and it might even get taken down, I don't know.
    I'm new to wordpress and I have to say that I find some posts almost comical. It appears there are two camps on this board. Kubrick promoters and Root promoters. I don't hear too much from the kubrick promoters, but what I do see is that one camp rants/raves against the other camp and the evil empire and then promotes his own templates - and tells many people that their layouts are "borked".
    I wonder if many people even know where that term originated? Think Supreme Court nominee. Anyway, if you look at this individual's site using firefox 1.0 you can slightly see the main content are of the site bleeding under the footer and the site currently doesn't validate. Is that considered "borked"?
    So, come on people, give it a rest. With all of the different browsers, operating systems and screen resolutions, nothing is going to be perfect. Use whatever layout you want. But for pete's sake, at least agree that the WP engine is pretty darn cool and best of all, FREE! In my opinion it is pretty easy to sit back and complain. If you don't like WP, go out and create your own blog engine, package it and then give it away free and then deal with the people that don't like what you are doing.
    Oh, and I'm in now way associated with WP other than I started using it a few months ago.
    I appreciate the effort the development team puts into the product and glad it's out there. I haven't even considered using MT or Eblogger, and while it is in my control, won't.
    Thanks for listening.

  29. Joni
    Member
    Posted 9 years ago #

    Anon, I wondered about that term, too. Didn't find it at dictionary.com, but did find it at urbandictionary.com:
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bork&r=d

  30. Anonymous
    Unregistered
    Posted 9 years ago #

    Yeah, Robert Bork was a Supreme Court nominee by Regean in '87 who was shot down by the Dems. It coined a phrase that is used when other nominees are voted against, "borked". As in, W's nominee for Labor Secretary was borked.
    You have to be old to remember that. And, if memory serves me right, I think some tried to embarrass Bork by revealing that he had rented some "pornographic" videos - which would be extremely damaging to any conservative. Hence, he was borked. Torpedoed.
    As Paul Harvey would say, "And know you know the rest of the story. Good day."

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