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CSS & PHP themes SUCK (29 posts)

  1. stealthgear
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    I have been trying to customize my wordpress blog for about 3 days. I've probably spent 12 hours at my computer.

    #1 Problem : CSS is impossible if you don't have Adobe Golive CS2 (even then its very annoying)
    #2 Problem : Word press doesn't have any easily organized tutorials for beginners using COMPLETELY BLANK templates.
    #3 Problem : Everytime you make a change you almost have to save, FTP, and go check your site to make sure your not messing up some PHP code or doing something that looks bad.
    #4 Problem : Word Press' file directory setup is insane. 2 index.php files....You have to figure out which to edit.

    Basically I was just looking to do DESIGN work, and this was a total waste of my time. I don't know what to do next...

  2. jennmiller
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    When I started with WordPress, not even a year ago, I had never heard of php and css. I downloaded templates (themes) that I thought were close to what I wanted and then designed around them. I've never heard of Adobe Golive, but in my experience, I bet any Adobe product is making it WAY more complicated than it should be.

    I would find a theme that I kind of like, and using FireFox and the "edit css" extension, I would play around.

    If you've already gotten this far, it won't hurt to try.

  3. James
    Happiness Engineer
    Posted 6 years ago #

    #1 Solution: Learn how to code CSS by completing a few courses at http://www.w3schools.com/. Also, GoLive is not the only graphical CSS editor out there. Depending on your platform, there are plenty of freeware, shareware, and commercial alternatives.

    #2 Solution: http://codex.wordpress.org/Blog_Design_and_Layout

    #3 Solution: Work on a local mirror of your blog. See:
    http://girtby.net/offerings/wordpress-osx-local-mirror (Mac)
    http://www.tamba2.org.uk/wordpress/xampp/ (PC)

    #4 Solution: Don't touch the index.php file in WordPress root. This why Themes were invented. You only have to edit your theme's index.php file.

  4. jonimueller
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    One by one.

    #1 Problem : CSS is impossible if you don't have Adobe Golive CS2 (even then its very annoying) Not at all. Download the trial version of Topstyle (http://bradsoft.com). Then when you find out how much easier it makes creating and editing stylesheets, you won't be able to throw that $79 at them fast enough. Trust me.

    #2 Problem : Word press doesn't have any easily organized tutorials for beginners using COMPLETELY BLANK templates.

    You don't want a completely BLANK template. Just start with the barest one, which has been provided (Classic). There is no dearth of excellent tutorials out there on the topic of WordPress layout.

    Start here:
    http://www.thebombsite.com/The-Fix/122
    to read about layout anomalies and how to fix them. Once you wrap your head around this, you will be fine.

    Then, you can check out some more information here:
    http://www.tamba2.org.uk/wordpress/

    and here:
    http://catsutorials.catsudon.org/?cat=2

    That should get you going with WordPress. For more general CSS help, bookmark (and read) these links:

    http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/
    http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/css/
    http://www.w3schools.com/css/default.asp
    http://www.e-lusion.com/design/menu/
    http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/index.htm
    http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/

    #3 Problem : Everytime you make a change you almost have to save, FTP, and go check your site to make sure your not messing up some PHP code or doing something that looks bad. Change what? A page of HTML? A stylesheet? With TopStyle, you can view realtime changes and you can set it up to preview in as many browsers as you can load on your computer.

    #4 Problem : Word Press' file directory setup is insane. 2 index.php files....You have to figure out which to edit.
    Uh, category.php ... category template.
    single.php ... individual archive template.
    index.php ... main template.
    page.php ... WP Page template.

    You want it dummied down more?

    Basically I was just looking to do DESIGN work, and this was a total waste of my time. I don't know what to do next...

    Perhaps an attitude adjustment and a big cup/glass of your favorite beverage?

    Rome wasn't built in a day and if you don't possess the skill sets necessary to do design work yet, your first attempts aren't going to look like they were done by the Balthaser.com crew. Me? I learn something new every day. A lot of it is trial and error, but more of it is just educating yourself about how all these things work together to create a site. How did I gain my knowledge? By picking apart the underpinnings of a site, examining the stylesheet, reading online about CSS and HTML, investing in a few books about CSS. PHP: That's waay down the road. But that's what the support forums are for. You do what you can, and when you get stuck, the kind folks here can usually help you out.

    It's not rocket science and it's all easily assimilated by most people. You don't need a degree in physics to understand it. You just need a starting point. The links above should help you with WordPress-specific matters. Googling for what you want is also good. It won't drop from the sky onto your head, and you can't sit like a baby bird in a nest waiting for a worm to be dropped into your mouth.

    Good luck!

  5. James
    Happiness Engineer
    Posted 6 years ago #

    As an added note, WordPress' list of available themes recently passed the 300 mark. If theme design really is as difficult as you're making it sound, then I guess those 250+ theme designers were just willing to go the extra mile. Or, perhaps theme design isn't as difficult as you're making it sound. Just give it time, and read the Codex articles very carefully. A few good volunteers spent long hours preparing those for publication. If you feel that the articles need improvement, feel free to improve them, they are community-editable.

  6. pcmt
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    Some excellent replies. I've been using WordPress for about five weeks - my first experience of a CMS - and I think it's superb. I love it. And it's one of the best-supported and best-documented I've seen. My advice is to spend time reading up in the Codex - not just skim reading but reading carefully.

    Not everyone can do this, I know, but having a test site set up on another domain is a very useful way to test changes before implementing them on the real site.

  7. tomhanna
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    #1 Problem : CSS is impossible if you don't have Adobe Golive CS2 (even then its very annoying)

    I've found Notepad works pretty well, actually. And with WordPress, you can just use the Theme editor. My experience with WYSIWG editors since the earliest days of HTML (1994 or thereabouts) has been that they all suck The new ones using CSS may produce a better product than the old ones used to with tables, but I would still avoid the whole bunch. Especially for someone touting themselves as a designer, reliance on a GUI program to do the work for you seems a bit...lazy.

    #2 Problem : Word press doesn't have any easily organized tutorials for beginners using COMPLETELY BLANK templates.

    Did you look at the Codex at all before writing this?

    #3 Problem : Everytime you make a change you almost have to save, FTP, and go check your site to make sure your not messing up some PHP code or doing something that looks bad.

    Well, actually you have to check any HTML page every time you make a change, in my experience. With WordPress, FTP doesn't have to be involved - use the Theme Editor in the Administration Panel.

    #4 Problem : Word Press' file directory setup is insane. 2 index.php files....You have to figure out which to edit.

    Two index.php files in two different directories. Nothing unusual about that at all. But regardless the current setup is a major leap forward over the old setup. And there isn't much to figure out. You go to the Administration Panel to the Presentation Tab to Theme Editor and edit Main Template. You don't even have to know that it's called "index.php", let alone figure out which one to edit. But your first clue might have been when the index.php in the main directory had nothing in it but basically "use themes" and "require the blog header". Even a nonprogrammer like myself could follow that much to realize that all that file is intended to do is lay the groundwork for calling the theme files.

    And having just read your blog, as a potential client my thought would be....if all this guy is going to do is use a drag-and-drop WYSIWG editor complaining all the while if he actually has to have some knowledge beyond how to move a mouse, why don't I just have my secretary do it?

  8. Mark (podz)
    Support Maven
    Posted 6 years ago #

    I've just read the blog too.
    4 points here and 12 there = 16 pieces of junk.

  9. tomhanna
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    Here, since you seemed curious are some of those things that "nobody knows wtf":
    CSS= Cascading Style Sheets
    RSS=Really Simple Syndication
    HTML= Hypertext Markup Language
    and a couple of freebies that you didn't actually complain about yet...
    XML=eXtensible Markup Language
    PHP=Personal home page which led to PHP Hypertext Processor
    SQL=Structured Query Language

  10. Mark (podz)
    Support Maven
    Posted 6 years ago #

    Tom - you missed one for him:

    RTFM

    ;)

  11. James
    Happiness Engineer
    Posted 6 years ago #

    Better yet:

    CSS= Cascading Style Sheets
    RSS=Really Simple Syndication
    HTML= Hypertext Markup Language
    and a couple of freebies that you didn't actually complain about yet...
    XML=eXtensible Markup Language
    PHP=Personal home page which led to PHP Hypertext Processor
    SQL=Structured Query Language

    It certainly looks like at least someone "knows wtf" those stand for.

    P.S. RTFM=Read the F***ing Manual

  12. jonimueller
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    Just one more, and I'll have to stop reading or I'll probably get a nosebleed from the ire!

    4. Most CSS designed sites look terrible, like they were done by someone with no design knowlege.

    check out

    http://csszengarden.com

    Then come back here (with hat in hand) and say that again. To my face.

    (Oh, and he probably thinks Flash intros are still "kewl". Yawn.)

  13. Firas
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    It's true that the state of CSS support is primitive, it'd be nice if there was web based WSIWYG layouting, the usage and insertion of template tags is atrociously user-hostile etc. That, unfortunately, is the state of WordPress and its relatives. But you didn't just come here to rant, because that's what your blog is for, right? :) You came here to seek advice. With a needlessly instigative post title.

    So here's my advice on #3: use the inbuilt template editor, or try to find a text editor that can open files via ftp, or see if your ftp client lets you open files in desktop apps and sync upon hitting save in them. Do reply if you have any more questions about getting up to speed with WP theme editing.

  14. tomhanna
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    Ah, I feel so much better after looking at that.

  15. TechGnome
    Moderator
    Posted 6 years ago #

    #1 Problem : CSS is impossible if you don't have Adobe Golive CS2 (even then its very annoying)

    Bull biscuits. I certanly don't have that and I do just fine with my CSS. In fact I even use FREE tools to do it all with.

    #2 Problem : Word press doesn't have any easily organized tutorials for beginners using COMPLETELY BLANK templates.

    Then you haven't done enough research. I've done at least two from scratch.... it's not as hard as people make it out to be.

    #3 Problem : Everytime you make a change you almost have to save, FTP, and go check your site to make sure your not messing up some PHP code or doing something that looks bad.

    Bull Busuits part II. Run everything on a test site or on your local machine. Google XAMP or LAMP.

    #4 Problem : Word Press' file directory setup is insane. 2 index.php files....You have to figure out which to edit.

    Umm, it seems fairly simple to me. If I want to modify the main page of Theme X, then I look in the Theme X folder...

    Basically I was just looking to do DESIGN work, and this was a total waste of my time. I don't know what to do next...

    Since you didn't ask for any help, I won't give it. But it sounds like you need a little more than some CSS (which stands for Cascading Style Sheets) help.

    Tg

  16. drobbins
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    I agree with all these replies; CSS is not only easy once you just go over it, you can design virtually anything with it. Furthermore, Adobe Go Live? To be honest, this might be more of the problem than a solution. Years ago, when someone told me this, I thought they were insane - but coding by hand is the ONLY way to go. I very occasionally bust out Dreamweaver because you can quickly make a good style sheet, but anything beyond that and you are just asking for frustration.
    Secondly, completely blank templates are the only way I like to go; but I would suggest looking at some themes and seeing how they are using little pieces here and there. I suggest Eric Meyer's list of CSS links to get you started.
    Finally - Web Standards. Look it up. Sure, it means you can't drag and drop a million flashy gadgets from some program, but take it from anyone who has ever worked in an environment where they had to make a Web page - not a site, but just a PAGE - that more than 2 browsers could accurately view (show of hands, version-4-browser coders!?!) - Web standards is the only way to go - which is why I chose WordPress after trying everything else and being immensley disappointed.
    At least meet people halfway and put in some effort before you go knocking this system many people worked very hard on and which is, in my opinion, the best on the net. Otherwise, they are called Web designers - hire one.

  17. tomhanna
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    The bad thing about the original post isn't that he's frustrated with PHP and CSS or even that he's confused by the Theme structure. I was there myself less than a year ago (when, honestly, the structure of WP made far less sense). It's that he is blaming WordPress and, to some extent, this forum. I feel like I've got a fairly good grasp of CSS at this point and while I can't code PHP, I can follow a lot of it because of the help I've gotten here and from the WordPress codex. My only two major sources for CSS learning have been here and http://www.w3schools.com/css/ . Once or twice I've found a specific solution to a specific problem with a search on my favorite search engine, but as far as learning, this forum is the place.

  18. jonimueller
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    Some people don't want to learn. Anyone who still espouses tables as a layout tool (under all but the most limited of circumstances) can't cry "foul" when CSS, DHTML and XML start giving them problems.

    If I didn't know better, I would have thought I'd been the victim of a time travel experiment. Gone horribly, horribly wrong.

    In order to be good at something, especially if you want to make a living at it, you have to understand it, or at the very least RESPECT it. This poster seems to do neither. If he can eek out a living, or even a sideline with the attitude and knowledge that he has at this moment, I say "More power to him."

    You can lead a horse to CSS but you can't make him use it!

  19. davidchait
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    Wow. This almost seems like trolling, but heck, I'll throw wood on the fire!

    First, there ARE cases where tables are useful. Especially if you need dead-on position control of non-overlapping boxes.

    However, the moment you want free-floating designs (and yes, I used the word floating there purposefully!), CSS is the only way to achieve such things. Well, aside from wacky dyanmically-generated HTML... yeeeeeesh.

    More importantly, I'd say that the folks considered 'top web designers' know css, php or asp, and probably a few other languages (perl, whatever). OR, they punt and do entire sites within Flash (which, wow, requires 'flashscript' knowledge! :) ). But many, many major sites that aren't blogs have had CSS overhauls. I personally can't stand most Flash sites, they simply aren't the type of 'interactivity' I want from my web experience at the moment (Apple's Dashboard Widgets are a better view of interactive-web...).

    -d

  20. Beel
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    If ever I saw a thread asking to be deleted...

    One peurile rant with no question and everybody takes the bait while others with REAL questions and a genuine desire to get a little education wait patiently in other threads.

    Let's all say aloud, "Troll!"

    ;-)

    P.S. The next person who posts a response here is more of a sucker than the ones I caught fishing today! (hmmm, a bit tricky being more of something than the real thing ;-)

    P.P.S. Turn off your computer then go buy a pencil and a spiral notebook. (Shucks, I guess this means I lost my own challenge... the next person to post is more of a sucker than I am)

  21. Dgold
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    Although the 1st post is trolling, some of the replies were great. I learned several things from jonimueller and others posts. Some of y'all amaze me with comments like 'whip up a stylesheet quickly.' I've got DW, Notepad, and Firefox right here and barely know where to start on the CSS. In compliments to WordPress, I started a couple weeks ago with no knowledge of PHP, Template Tags, or CSS, and I have now messed with all these things to customize my site (to an extent), mostly through the Theme Editor and Manage Files in the admin interface like tomhanna suggests.

    In closing, more overview and general suggestions like some of the posts above, are very helpful for me. Thanks.

    WordPress..... Doesn't Suck.

  22. graemep
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    #3 Problem : Everytime you make a change you almost have to save, FTP, and go check your site to make sure your not messing up some PHP code or doing something that looks bad.

    Solutions:

    Use a text editor that can save files back over ftp. Your cycle becomes edit -> save -> test

    Install a test copy on your PC. I think there are easy Apache and MySQL installers for Mac and Windows. Most Linux distributions come with both which makes it even easier.

    I wasted a bit of time trying to change the HTML root directory, I then realised it was easier to link from it to where I had copied the WP files. Other than that it was easy.

    Beel: I think he is ranting. he is wrong, but they are all things a newbie could genuinely think, especially if they are used to relying in Dreamweaver (or something similar) rather then writing HTML themselves.

  23. TechGnome
    Moderator
    Posted 6 years ago #

    And yet Beel.... you still replied.... Geeez man, c'mone, let us indulge ourselves every once in a while....

    Tg

  24. battra
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    Looks like he's one who learned webdesign using WYSIWYG editors or slice-n-convert tools. And I don't think he's coming back here :)

  25. redwind
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    What WordPress ought to have done is to state at their frontpage or download section that working knowledge of CSS and PHP is required or else one might as well stick with BLOGGER. What one can achieve without these skills when using WP is about the same as what one will be able to achieve with Blogger. In fact, its much simpler to make modifications with Blogger. So, if you really want to take advantage of WP, one might just go learn web design with PHP.

  26. chrishes
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    If you read the "About" http://wordpress.org/about/
    page, that might have clued you in that WP uses PHP, mySQL and "Web Standards" and before you go tinkering around with code of any kind, you might try to learn a little bit before you jump in. There are a plethora of resources with tutorials, but you must lift a finger to find them.

    If you have no previous knowledge of either PHP,HTML or CSS, then perhaps you should stay with something like Blogger or Typepad and don't come in here and complain because you screwed something up that you had no understanding of in the first place.

  27. johnkgibson
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    1) Thanks for all the links! In fact I have thought the same things the poster has thought at one time or another.

    2) You guys really show patience, again much thanks for that. Without you guys, someone like me would be lost when trying to modify WordPress. Reading this forum has been a real education.

    3) Finally someone mentioned that there are over 300 themes out there. Is there a central place where one can see them all?

    Thanks again for all your great help.

    John Gibson

  28. Mark (podz)
    Support Maven
    Posted 6 years ago #

    3) http://themes.wordpress.net/
    There's a fair few there, and a new themes site (or two) are in active developement.

  29. muskie
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    I wish I got to reply sooner. Regardless if it is a troll, that is a commonly expressed view. Too many people pirated a copy of Dreamweaver and called themselves web designers. I try to distance myself from that whole trend.

    I've always coded by hand. I tried Dreamweaver when it first came out, went back to using the product Macromedia eventually bought from Allaire, the name has escaped me on Windows. When I'm on *Nix I use Nedit or even Pico in a hurry. CSS has been around since 1998-9 at least. Once people moved passed Netscape 4 and it's buggy implementation it is a superior way to go than Dreamweaver, GoLive at least several versions ago, produces the ugliest HTML source I've ever seen.

    I worked on no less than two custom content management solutions. The second of which has an elaborate customization template system, heck it was recently opensourced if you want to see http://www.gvcsitemaker.com/ I'm even going to write some sort of tutorial on translating templates between the two. You heard it hear first. WordPress has more templates but I made a few dozen for SiteMaker. SiteMaker had legacy issues especially on the menu and it was mandated by our main client that it had to support Netscape 4 on the Mac no less.

    I managed to convert pretty much the entire company to the wonders of CSS and I got to put in CSS classes and ids into GVC.Sitemaker to make it more customizeable. Because WordPress made the correct decision and went with unordered list of links for navigation, they can do things like a horizontal menu which are impossible with tables, at least once the table structure is determined and "can not be changed". That still seems to be on the ta-do list for GVC.SiteMaker.

    Anyway I've gotten off track. On the Mac get BBEdit or if your cheap TextWrangler, or if you're a Zeldman desciple get PageSpinner. For CSS there are some good general beginner tutorials online. I've even written one or two myself but I think they are all internal to various companies I've worked for. There is a style/template tutorial in the GVC.SiteMaker manual which is almost unchanged since I left. Most things with the UI seem to be done my way write down to the naming of a file as snazzy.css Good Old Uncle Ross always used that word so now it lives on...

    Once you get the basics, classes, ids, box model, inherritance, I highly recommend Eric Meyer's book, "Eric Meyer on CSS" there is a sequal now. A lot of the advanced techniques can be gleaned online at say http://www.alistapart.com/ but I learned a lot working through Eric's book. I implemented many of his techniques as templates for a template gallery which I don't even think exists anymore. So much of the work I did seems to have ended up undeployed as companies go out of business or there are big legal messes or whatever.

    To conclude my deranged addition to this mess. You should have started learning CSS and HTML long before now if you are a "web designer". No matter how good the tools get you will always need to look at the code and to do that you need to know how it works. For dynamic sites, be they PHP, WebObjects, WordPress, or GVC.SiteMaker in order to integrate the front end with the back end and the dynamicly generated with the staticly written you need to understand how webpages are actually written, parsed, and rendered. Dreamweaver/Photoshop table based image slicing monstrosity strongweb pagesstrong have been on the way out for a long time and I for one won't miss them. Dynamicly generated, template based strongwebsitesstrong is the direction everyone is going. The days of everyone and anyone calling themselves a webdesigner are done, now you need some scripting ability, and knowledge of gasp emFTPem.

    Of course FTP is integrated into most decent webdesign packages but a good stand alone FTP program is still worth the $20 bucks to register in my oppinion. Command lines have their uses, but dragging and dropping is superior I don't care how fast you type.

    Muskie

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