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[closed] Better SVN instructions? (18 posts)

  1. SocialBlogsite
    Member
    Posted 2 years ago #

    I noticed the page http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/about/svn/ is not editable.

    That's the page where everyone lands on, since it's the first on google results, and it's way too geeky to follow. Can we edit it?

    It's too command-line-ish and it gives me a head-ache just by looking at it.
    I know there are SVN apps out there but I found out most of issues with SVN, even with GUIs, come from the hit of our heads against the wall when working with subversioned files in our desktop.

    I found nowhere stating up-front using Finder (Explore in Win?) would mess the whole thing, nor giving a solution to KEEP managing the files as usual and still not breaking the SVN system. There's a missing link, a bridge between both systems. Both user profiles.

    We, not command-line experts, already know how to deal with files, and until a good GUI is developed, which deals with all the subversion-related stuff behind the scenes and still allows us to work as we think, I wrote my own tip about that missing link.

    http://socialblogsitewebdesign.com/definitive-solution-to-your-subversion-issues-when-uploading-your-wordpress-plugin

    With some help to cure my english, it could be helpful.

  2. fonglh
    Member
    Posted 2 years ago #

    Windows users can use this.
    http://tortoisesvn.net/

    Your solution takes away all the advantages of using a version control system. Personally, I wouldn't recommend it. In the long run, it's better to spend some effort to learn how to use a version control system.

    Honestly, you only need a few svn commands to get by.

  3. SocialBlogsite
    Member
    Posted 2 years ago #

    Honestly, you can say that because you had passed the codex page.

    Some people like me, who can deal with php already enough to understand what's happening (thanks to wordpress API, being enough to have only one thing to focus on) get dizzy with that page.

    The wordpress target has been steering towards people who are 10% geek who adventure in some coding. SVN is WAY far from wordpress target.

    There are not "a few" commands. that's only to start-up, but once you do something wrong (even knowing the basics, we are humans) I spend DAYS trying to figure out what went wrong.

    After all, what are "ALL THE ADVANTAGES" on tracking a new version who nobody ever worked on? You are creating a NEW one. God! just develop an app that let me "copy/paste/duplicate/rename and let it deal with its own stuff behind the scenes!
    The algorithm to compare files is already there. Just by comparing the files they could 100% safely understand your moves in the finder and "make the magic happen" (all that terminal code makes proud to programers)

    I can't be right in everything, but I can't be too wrong.

  4. SocialBlogsite
    Member
    Posted 2 years ago #

    Can that tortoisesvn to deal with changes made in the desktop? (out of the app)

  5. fonglh
    Member
    Posted 2 years ago #

    SVN is WAY far from wordpress target.

    Developing plugins for the repository is also a more advanced task not done by the majority of WordPress users.

    After all, what are "ALL THE ADVANTAGES" on tracking a new version who nobody ever worked on? You are creating a NEW one.

    You're looking at it wrong, which is why you can't see the advantages. Take a look at http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.7/svn.basic.version-control-basics.html
    The advantages are more apparent when your plugin gets bigger and you have more than one person working on it.

    Even in a single developer scenario, SVN allows you to access all your previous revisions without keeping a ton of files on your filesystem. You can commit frequently so it's painless to roll back if you make a mistake in the code.

    All that command line stuff and using SVN makes it more efficient for programmers to work, it's not done for the sake of pride.

    Spend some time and read chapters 1,2 and 5 of the SVN book. It might take you some days but you'll save days fixing it in future and may also make your workflow more efficent.
    http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.7/svn-book.html

    Can that tortoisesvn to deal with changes made in the desktop? (out of the app)

    It's an SVN client. You can use it to manage any files you want, but you'll have to setup your own SVN server.

    Personally, I think the plugins page should endorse best practices. Of course you can use your preferred method, but I don't think it should go there because that would imply that it's one of the best ways to go about it. The plugins developer page is also not the place for a full SVN tutorial. The information there is enough to get started and developers should look elsewhere for full instructions on SVN.

  6. SocialBlogsite
    Member
    Posted 2 years ago #

    Developing plugins for the repository is also a more advanced task not done by the majority of WordPress users.

    You might probably want to speak with the brain in charge of the world wide marketing and whoever designed wordpress dream.

    You are looking at it as a developer.
    Wordpress IS designed so the more "normal" public grasps it. You traced a line for your own kind (devs) that with a simple point of view from "normal" people for normal people would shift toward thousands of others the other side of the line (my group and growing). Of course, there's always people with own interest in every giant project. That's democracy. You have the right to be the one who stops the acceptancy and makes it cooler for devs only.

    Thanks to people like you Flash became amazingly versatile and you can even program your own OS!. Also, made it untaming while in hands of Macromedia. A cool easy to use tool went a nuclear physics mission for the ones who are not programmers (or 20 years code-diver like me)

    I still respect your point of you. And I wrote this because this is mine. It's a waste of time to try to convince me. Thanks for yours.

    Now, to keep talking to PREVENT others contribute to the svn page is like a brotherhood trying to keep non devs from the secret coding wizardry to keep their difference above "the people".

    Is there a way to open that documentation?
    I'd take special care to keep the good name of proper coding brotherhood and to ask for native english to proofread it (I have thousands of reviewers :)

    Spend some time and read chapters 1,2 and 5 of the SVN book. It might take you some days but you'll save days fixing it in future and may also make your workflow more efficent.

    I don't need to. Managing the files in my OS, I'm happy as new Apple user with its iPhoto.

    • No more messes
    • The files keep being tracked despite my sinful way to do it
    • I can duplicate, move, rename, everything as if I had gone 5 years in the future and downloaded an Apple svn app
    • WordPress accepts my files.
    • I can develope plugins without the fear of "having to get to the point in which I have to inevitably use svn".
    • My HD is 1MB bigger with each new version (I assume you meant that unchanged-files across versions use the same disk space, or I didn't get your point about the advantages of that for a user –not the host) and I can live with that sin

    Any good reason for reading those SVN chapters? (Keep in mind I like to do things with wordpress framework. NOT to be a programmer. Even less if I have to do command-line stuff. I like the graphic pen, and if I release it, the app won't be massive. It's a rule always work. Aks Apple and Adobe.

  7. SocialBlogsite
    Member
    Posted 2 years ago #

    Can that tortoisesvn to deal with changes made in the desktop? (out of the app)

    It's an SVN client. You can use it to manage any files you want, but you'll have to setup your own SVN server.

    Can that tortoisesvn to deal with changes made in the desktop? (out-of-the-app)

    Get it?

    Finder / Explorer-(or whatever windows use)-made changes
    Changes made in the OS, out of the app. Even while the app is closed (not freaking locking my pretty soft share-able happy icons)

  8. fonglh
    Member
    Posted 2 years ago #

    Using SVN for the repository doesn't keep anyone out unless they choose to be kept out. It's a tool which can be learnt, just like PHP and the WordPress API.

    I'm glad you're happy with your workflow, but it does not belong on the plugin documentation page. It's an inelegant workaround. Putting it there will imply that it's just as good. Yes it works, but it's not the best way.

    There's no "secret brotherhood of coders" trying to prevent "normal" people from contributing. It's simply about doing things right and teaching others to do the same.

    tortoisesvn is meant to be a version control client, not a file manager. Comparing it to Finder/Explorer is like comparing iPhoto to Photoshop. It doesn't make much sense to compare programs designed for different purposes like that.

  9. SocialBlogsite
    Member
    Posted 2 years ago #

    I got your point. Glad you replied the same again to make me understand it.

    Your point means you didn't understand me.
    I'm not against SVN. It rocks, and it's a MUST. There's no way people edit simultaneously the same file without it. Sorry if I expressed something that gave the wrong idea.

    Now I'll leave you a few seconds to digest my agreement and make some room for, again, my point.

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    SVN apps are not for "WordPress devs" target yet.
    (There are developers and "WordPress Developers", thanks to some brilliant brain who figured out normal people can be semi-devs with an API. Devs are out my point.)

    Thinking WordPress target users are Expert Devs puts you in that brotherhood, even if you didn't notice it.

    I knew a guy who worked with command-line apps. He'd build a dynamic website in 3 hours top. He'd type and glide through the page without a mouse so fast that you'd think it's a mad-computer-gone-wild movie.
    He's could make wordpress as fast as tickets pile up, but HE'S NOT the target "WP dev" is expected for WP to grow even bigger (target = expected future user, not present developer)

    Apps grow in two ways:
    BIG and un-tame-able e.g. Flash
    BIG and easy: APIs (facebook, wordpress)

    There's an API for plugins, you know why? Because IT'S EXPECTED non-programmers do their own plugins.
    Well, SVN GUIs, I repeat: GUIs, not the SVN itself, and that page locked up to something in human language is the bottle neck of plugins API.

  10. fonglh is right on target and SVN is just a preferred tool. No secret handshakes, no expert devs, it's just the tool and infrastructure being used. Although membership badges would be cool.

    Try not to read more into it past that. That's what's used here and that's that.

    You've given it some thought, you've obviously got a lot to say on the topic so why not blog about it? This really isn't a good place for trying to convince people of a point of view, it is Requests and feedback section and Brother, you've given feedback. ;)

    Also while I haven't looked or tried myself, you should be able to add to the Codex an article to make using SVN on Windows easier. In your original post you've expressed dissatisfaction with that SVN link. As you know, you can't edit that one but you can add to the Codex.

    Consider making a Codex contribution and you may help out others.

  11. SocialBlogsite
    Member
    Posted 2 years ago #

    Jan:
    I don't try to convince anyone.
    I try to be understood, and per your words you didn't get it either.

    Go up and read again where I said SVN MUST be the tool. May be keeping in mind that all my explanations make sense? ( I know, I used the word SVN many times, but as many as GUI, I think)

    Oh, thanks. I didn't know I can add new pages to the codex. Anyway, a link in that page (the one normal people lands on googling it) needs the page open to changes. I saw in other codex pages links to edit/contribute with the page. this one doesn't.

    Thanks.

  12. fonglh
    Member
    Posted 2 years ago #

    @socialblogsite

    Ok so you agree that SVN isn't the problem. The problem is the geekiness of the instructions on the plugin page.

    Your solution gives the wrong approach to handling SVN. Thus it should not be on that page, or even linked to from that page. An improvement to that page should show the correct use of SVN with the plugin repository.

    Well, SVN GUIs, I repeat: GUIs, not the SVN itself, and that page locked up to something in human language is the bottle neck of plugins API.

    What you actually said in your first post is that working with subversioned files is a pain, with or without a GUI.

  13. SocialBlogsite
    Member
    Posted 2 years ago #

    What you actually said in your first post is that working with subversioned files is a pain, with or without a GUI.

    You mean my blog post linked in my first post here?
    I didn't say that in my first post here.

    In any case, my post is for the biggest group. I'd bet you all $100 that the amount of not-devs making plugins for WordPress is bigger than the "professional developers".
    That's the group my post was for, and who the instructions should not discard. NOT BECAUSE that's the right or evil instructions (would a developer, e.g. you, mistakenly believe that's the way to go?) but because that's the page ALL people lands on.

    RIGHT THERE you have lots of people who could do simple plugins (as I did) and quit right there.

  14. SocialBlogsite
    Member
    Posted 2 years ago #

    fongih:

    it does not belong on the plugin documentation page. It's an inelegant workaround. Putting it there will imply that it's just as good. Yes it works, but it's not the best way.

    There's your brotherhood-ness.

    People won't think mine is a replacement for the SVN as you all did.
    It sucks for the non-devs, and my explanation is the bridge to understand it faster, and use it sooner before crunching tons of new info. People not defending any brotherhood won't confuse it. (Even less if you put a little note stating what that is)
    At least developers have an inferior IQ, there's no reason to get confused with the instructions for the "command-line" way to submit the files.
    How to manage your local files is still a decision of confort.

    Would you confuse to drive a car if you were told to accelerate with the left foot?

    There you go.

    My point of view allows regular people to work in their computer like they are used to, again, fo finally upload the files with the required SVN.

    It's even more elegant for the ones who paid double for a Mac :)

  15. fonglh
    Member
    Posted 2 years ago #

    You mean my blog post linked in my first post here?
    I didn't say that in my first post here.

    You said it right here (copied below)

    but I found out most of issues with SVN, even with GUIs, come from the hit of our heads against the wall when working with subversioned files in our desktop.

    You don't need to be a "professional developer" to use SVN. You just need to spend some time (probably less than you spent learning the plugins API and PHP) and read the documentation. That you've refused to does not mean others with similar skill levels are unwilling to.

    Not all "professional developers" know SVN either. They might be familiar with other systems but seeing such instructions on the official plugin documentation, believe that it's the right way to go for SVN with WordPress.

    It's precisely because that is the page everyone lands on which is why the instructions must be correct and follow best practices. There's no "brotherhood-ness" here, just about doing things right. You seem very proud to be a Mac user, I'm sure one of the reasons is the thoughtfulness and care that went into the designs, to do things right. It's just the same principle here.

    Your accusations about some conspiracy keeping "non-devs" out is inaccurate and it's really not helping your argument.

    People won't think mine is a replacement for the SVN as you all did.

    But that's exactly what you're pushing so hard for. An alternative workflow which bypasses SVN's workflow. That's what your blog post is about. A bridging solution will help people move on to the correct way. Yours doesn't. That's a fact and no amount of accusations about "defending a brotherhood" or calling me confused is going to change it. If you truly want to provide a bridging solution, you'll have to read those SVN chapters and add some more material to your tutorial. Maybe that's a better reason for you.

    Would I be able to drive a car with my left foot? Probably. Would I be able to get the best out of it? No. Your method will be like telling lots of people to drive with their left foot. Will it work? Yes. Will they be able to get the best out of the car? No. Should a reputable driving school teach learners to accelerate with their left foot? Definitely not.

    There you go.

    Sorry but paying double for a Mac is your own personal choice and irrelevant to the discussion.

  16. SocialBlogsite
    Member
    Posted 2 years ago #

    fongih

    My first language is Spanish, but my grammar is good in both (at least it's a rushed edit or lack of bocabulary).

    You said it right here (copied below)

    but I found out most of issues with SVN, even with GUIs, come from the hit of our heads against the wall when working with subversioned files in our desktop.

    That only says:
    a) People have issues with SVN.
    b) People includes all SVN experts, command-line coders, and code-divers like me
    c) My opinion on where the issues come from is at the end of the sentence, not blaming SVN.
    d) The target of the article are people who grown up using graphic interfaces: Windows, icons, mouse.

    So you are like a jealous boyfriend. You hear a "horn" and you want hit the closest guy to your girlfriend. You are blinded by any word in the same sentence with SVN, and worst of all, people coming to this topic sees your point (not wrong if I actually WANTED worpdress changing their whole system to something else) and they just feel like joining to throw their stone to me.

    When you stop defending SVN you'll read it all different. There is more proud on your studies and envy others didn't sweat it like you, all showing in your writting, than the desires of making thing better in mine.

    Not all "professional developers" know SVN either. They might be familiar with other systems but seeing such instructions on the official plugin documentation, believe that it's the right way to go for SVN with WordPress.

    Your comment is ridiculous. If everything worked that way Wikipedia would be a Nazi "official" info page. People have enough neurons to read the titles stating "SVN" and "Help to understand it and work faster with it if you are used to icons and mouse"
    Believing people is going to get confused is SUPER-DUMB. That's only your envy of others not winning your wins to get it with less sweat.

    You don't need to be a "professional developer" to use SVN. You just need to spend some time (probably less than you spent learning the plugins API and PHP) and read the documentation.

    There you go again. How many times do I have to say I agree SVN is a must?

    Read my words.
    I DON'T NEED TO KNOW THAT COMMAND LINE.
    YES, I WILL USE SVN.
    NO, I WON'T USE THOSE COMMANDS.
    YES, I WILL SUBMIT THE FILES WITH SVN
    NO, I WON'T USE THOSE COMMANDS.
    IT WORKS, AND IM' USING SVN, AND I DIDN'T USE THOSE COMMANDS.

    Does that makes you feel angry? Not having your expertise, not reading the whole documentation and STILL being able to understand it and use it?

    That you've refused to does not mean others with similar skill levels are unwilling to.

    That's "right to choose". I agree.
    DEAL: I'll allow others read the terminal-way and you allow others read my desktop way. mmm…Conflicting feelings, right?
    What should you do?… admit fair is fair for everyone allowing people unwilling to do it the terminal way and stain the holy old-command-line papyrus…
    or…
    Honor your wings and 'the hell with everyone's "right to choose". I won't let them to jump over the "proper" command-line way.

    It must be hard.

    Your accusations about some conspiracy keeping "non-devs" out is inaccurate and it's really not helping your argument.

    The way you fall once and again in the label I'm putting you definitely makes my point when others see how you keep spinning in the same place.

    But that's exactly what you're pushing so hard for. An alternative workflow which bypasses SVN's workflow

    Really? Are you really pulling that longer?
    "Bypass SVN's workflow? Would you stop it?
    Is that rage?, envy?, proud of your wings?
    Using my desktop to manage my files should make no impact in your life or WP admins.

    It's still you who is misleading SVN with SVN GUI.
    If you really tried my alternative you would have
    a) proved that I'm still using SVN and it validates fine wp side
    b) answered my question about "unchanged files taking the same disk space". Since you didn't answer, makes my point that the only advantage of copying the files with SVN (by copying I mean creating a new version. Copying folders) doesn't even exist.

    You could make me take back some of my recommendations just by explaining me how the way I work with my files locally affects WP or the SVN project in the server.
    But you haven't.

    Would I be able to drive a car with my left foot? Probably. Would I be able to get the best out of it? No. Your method will be like telling lots of people to drive with their left foot.

    Wow, I have the answer to my question you just confused here.
    The question was whether you'd get confused if I told you to do something you do every day, in a different way. Not whether you could do it or not.
    And the answer seems to be YES. You will. As per the last many, you have been "watching" the words. Not reading.

    You hurt my topic. Thanks.

  17. fonglh
    Member
    Posted 2 years ago #

    Once again, you may use whatever way you want, you may publish whatever method you want. I don't care, I don't mind.

    But that does not mean your method belongs on the official page.

    No rage, no envy, no pride. I understand there's a language barrier, but what you said in the first post is clearly not what you explained later. It's fine for you to clarify, but it's irksome to see you deny what you wrote earlier.

    I do not agree with your method. If the people in charge think it's good enough to go on the page, no problem with me. I appreciate your good intentions in trying to write clearer instructions, but they're wrong for SVN's workflow. You don't have to accept it, but that's the fact.

    By the way, your many personal attacks, name calling and baseless accusations are totally uncalled for and very unprofessional. I've responded to your main points and I'm not going to bother giving you feedback on this issue any more.

    Have a nice day.

  18. Samuel Wood (Otto)
    Tech Ninja
    Posted 2 years ago #

    Really?

    I mean... really?

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