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[closed] 2.5 admin backend annoying (177 posts)

  1. geoffarnold
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    I upgraded, posted a rant about the usability of the Write Post screen, and now I find that I'm not alone.

    A few weeks ago, I read the "sneak peek" about this page:

    By far, the most frequently accessed part of WordPress is the Write screen. It gets the job done, but its myriad options can be overwhelming. The new write screen only displays the information that you’ll use most often. It displays the most common fields in a way that makes posting incredibly easy. Additional options are hidden away until you need them. The new Write screen anticipates the natural flow of the way you write, and is smart enough to remember the way you left it so that your preferred writing environment is always quickly available. The new visual editor even has a handy full-screen mode to help block out distractions while composing your newest post. (My personal favorite new feature.)

    And I must admit that I probably "mixed in" these comments about the Dashboard:

    You can... edit the way information is presented so that the new Dashboard conforms to the way you use WordPress.

    There are two problems that I can see. First, the page doesn't "display the information that you’ll use most often", it displays the information that some UI designer (probably not a hard-core blogger) thought you would use most often. If one could actually edit the UI so that it conforms to the way one uses it, that would be great.

    The second problem is that the UI is very space-inefficient. Earth to WP: we don't all compose our blogs on 24 inch iMacs. Many of us use cellphones, or subnotebooks, or even internet tablets. Space matters.

    And whatever happened to that full-screen mode anyway?

  2. lelion
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    Let me explain in a few words, why I do not like WP 2.5 Admin GUI (I even wrote a special blog-post, dedicated to my WP 2.5 Admin interface dislikes;-).

    It's not about Zeldman (which I like), or Matt (which I like even more). It's about usability and accessibility.

    * * *

    I am using WordPress since WP 2.0.5. I liked 2.0.5 a lot, also I liked 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, and 2.3.3. But I don't like so much 2.5. There are things which were done in a much better way in 2.3.3!

    In WP 2.3.3, most of the settings for a particular post, in the 'WRITE' page, were located in the sidebar. This included 'Edit category', 'Allow/disallow comments/pings', 'Time/Date of publishing', 'Post slug', etc., and this was very useful. I could type my post title & text in the left side of the page, and I could instantly change my post slug, date of publishing, category, etc., in the right side. I could re-arrange the panels, and leave open or closed the ones I liked/used most. I could then (after a 'Preview' in new tab of my browser) instantly save or publish my post, by using the buttons located right below the post title & text. I could also tab to these buttons, which is also nice for people who prefer not to use the mouse so much.

    --- WP 2.5: it's no longer possible to re-arrange the panels in the 'Write' page. Also, they are moved to the bottom of the page, which creates a lot of un-needed scrolling up and down. When they were in the sidebar, it was much easier to write a post (left), select category (right), type the post slug, lock/unlock comments and hit 'Publish'. All of this was possible without any scrolling at all. Now, same thing requires: Type title & text of post (top left), scroll down to check category, tags, lock/unlock comments/pings, then scroll up; wait a bit, so the 'post slug' appears after the first autosave, click, change post slug (at the top); change or check date of posting (more clicks, as the field is hidden by default! - right side); scroll down again (if needed, for the other settings), scroll up, hit PUBLISH - in the right (why there and not under text of post?).

    This is not usable or user-friendly! This requires a lot more scrolling up and down. And the location of SAVE & PUBLISH buttons is very strange. When you type a comment in a blog, you fill name, URL, comment text, and hit 'SUBMIT'. Where is the Submit button? Below the text! When you write an e-mail online, you fill e-mail address, email subject & body and then hit 'SEND'. Where is Send button? Below text of email! When you fill an online form (signup, etc.), you fill all the fields and then hit 'SUBMIT FORM'. And the button is again below the fields!

    Now in WP you create title & text (top left); assign category, tags, lock/unlock comments/pings (bottom of page); edit post slug (top left); edit date/time (top right); finally, hit 'Publish' (top right, instead of below main title & text). And this is not useful or usable at all!

    If a certain task is done using more clicks and more scrolling than before, then something is not done in the best possible way, but quite the opposite!

    So I believe, parts of the new WP 2.5 GUI should be re-thought.

    1. Almost everything in the bottom of the 'Write' page should go back to the sidebar. It was there before, and it reduced scrolling, so it should be good!
    2. Drag-n-drop should be possible again, for the panels in the Write page.
    3. Save & Publish buttons should go back under the text field of the post, where they belong.

    Apart from that, I can live with the new WP 2.5 :-) And users can create new color admin schemes (which is nice), but they cannot place the panels back to the sidebar, as this would require hard-coding of the WP files... I would create an Admin Theme for 2.5 myself, with panels back in the sidebar, but this is not possible without editing the PHP files. :(

    Finally, if WP is definitely going this way, at least provide users with an option: A) 'Write' page - almost all panels at the bottom (new 2.5 way), B) 'Write' page - almost all panels in the sidebar (so-called 'Classic 2.3' way). Then users will be able to choose, which way they like it more. I believe, more than a half of them will switch back to 'everything in the sidebar' ;-)

    I like WordPress. I use it for more than a year now. I hope it will continue developing as lightweight, handy, useful blogging software, and not a new kind of 'bloatware', with terrible interface and shiny trendy colors... Yes, it was simpler before 2.5. It used darker colors. It had less rounded corners than now. But you know what?

    Good web software is not recognized by shiny colors or rounded edges or new sleek AJAX effects. It is recognized by ease of use, and by people loving it. WP is loved by a lot of people, and it was very easy to use (before 2.5 came out). Now I have to do a lot more clicking around and scrolling, to publish my texts. This means, something's wrong in the interface. And I hope it can be/will be fixed. This is better than seeing people around you downgrading back to 2.3.3. And now I see some of my friends going back to 2.3.3 -- which is not good sign at all...

    Peace & love! :-)

  3. chrisdoth
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    Great post.

    I confess I went back to 2.3.3 at least for the time being. At least it was quite simple to do, like most things in wordpress are/were.

  4. Sapphire
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    Stop the presses: the permalink does not really save until you publish. I just tested this by publishing two posts that had autosaved a permalink of three meaningless numbers. When I checked the actual published permalink, it was indeed the title of the post, as per usual. So this feature works like it always did: they just made it look broken. Baffling!

    Eric23, your edit-post-advanced.php file works brilliantly. Thank you! I hope the WordPress team incorporates your changes to the next update.

    Anyone know how to edit the Manage Posts screen so the time of the post shows up as well as the date? Or would that involve scary amounts of CSS editing, since there's no column set aside for it?

    Another rather odd change I noticed today is that when you use the visual editor's "insert link" function, the panel comes up with the "http://" pre-filled but not selected. If rather than typing your links by hand (who does this these days?) you want to simply paste it in, you have to select that pre-filled http:// before pasting or else it gets tacked onto the beginning of your link, breaking it. In the old days, that was selected, so pasting would type over it.

    I can't even imagine why they thought it would be more useful, or to whom. They're targeting people who don't know how to cut and paste? Because I can't imagine why else anyone would manually type a URL in, given how long they are. Yes, we all do it once in a while when it's short and convenient, but in those cases, you could just hit the right arrow button and start typing after the slashes.

  5. mommymoments
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    I have to agree with those of you that dislike it... I don't like to have to scroll to find the categories, and same as Sapphire, not liking the add link part ... it's very annoying... I think one of my biggest ones though is that when i click on post, it doesn't have a link to the posts that i have saved but unpublished... i actually have to go to manage, and then search for them... usually at the end, which after you write so much, and have so many pages, that gets annoying as heck..

    BRING BACK MY LINK TO THE DRAFTS ON THE WRITE PAGE!!!!

  6. Stephanie Leary
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    I'm thinking we need to start filing bugs if we want these issues addressed. Here's a list of potential bugs I've gleaned from this thread:

    * the whole issue of below-the-post vs. the right sidebar
    * no drafts listed on the Write page
    * permalink editing weirdness
    * pre-filled http:// not selected
    * no way to add files in the media manager
    * time of day missing from Manage Posts list
    * drag and drop widget management is gone (or just changed? See #5859)

    There are already some bugs filed on the media manager's functionality.

    I've taken the liberty of writing up the tags/category issue and creating a patch using ericr23's mod. Comments on the ticket would be great. (I was sorely tempted to set the priority as "highest omg bbq," but I refrained.)

    As for the rest of the list, if the people who brought up the issues would submit tickets on them, that'd be great too.

  7. Bodhipaksa
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    I agree with many of the comments about the usability of the "write" page. One more gripe: whose idea was it to put the "save" and "delete" buttons right next to each other? Those are two things that you want to have very far apart. I have a steady hand but my 17-month old just grabbed my mouse-arm while I was saving a post... (she didn't really, but it could happen).

    The one-click upgrade for plugins, though? Brilliant!

  8. StrangeAttractor
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    I agree with everything lelion said above. It could practically be a manifesto! ;)

    One of the most important things, I think:

    Drag-n-drop should be possible again, for the panels in the Write page.

    I strongly believe new updates of the admin panel should trend *towards* easy customization, not against. Anyone delving deeply into WP is into tweaking and customizing, and it's important to let us be able to have increasing control over the interface, not less.

    (This is also why people are so p*ssed over the new widget interface.)

    The ideology should be: make it easy for people who want to run straight out of the box, but give the rest of us the option to customize easily.

    I would someday like to see an admin panel that I can fully customize -- be able to label the menu items, arrange them, etc. I'm hoping that I will eventually see a release like that.

    In the meantime, please, developers, don't *reduce* our existing control in new releases!

  9. lelion
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    @StrangeAttractor:

    Thanks for the good words:)))

    And thanks for submitting a ticket! I'll leave my two cents at the TRAC later (but actually, I believe, that what people said in this thread, should be enough to make the next release of WP again with categories, tags, allow pings/comments panels in the sidebar:) (Actually, tags never've been there, but they should be, as categories are)

    Or at least, somehow an option should be made, via a setting, or via plugin, to have the panels in the sidebar...

    There are also a lot of things, which I'd like see improved in 2.5 (or rather, 'the way they were in 2.3.3';-) but for now the 'sidebar issue' is one of the biggest concerns for a lot of people...

  10. boerbramer
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    Just my 2 cents
    - I agree strongly with categories back to de admin sidebar, because this is a long list and users tend to forget to fill in.
    - I love the feature of uploading multiple images
    - I miss the feature of putting an image as thumbnail in a post and link to the full version of it (link to image option)

  11. OperaManiac
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    i need categories on the right side too. authors on the right side would be lovely (i use it!). both of these fields do not require a wide field area so it makes no sense placing them below the editor box.

    i also prefer slug box to be visible all the time. and i should not be required to put in a slug and press enter to save it.

    i also would like everything draggable. let me make my own backend admin panel. let me place fields where i want them to be.

  12. Matt Hill
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    I know it's not strictly an "Idea" as such, but I've posted a new idea in the Ideas section to revert the write screen back to the 2.3 functionality. If you want things back the way they were, it might be worth voicing your support there too:

    http://wordpress.org/extend/ideas/topic.php?id=1354

  13. vintagepretty
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    It's still annoying me beyond belief that none of our problems are getting "noticed" or at least commented-on by those In The Know. There are loads of us voicing very real concerns, with some even reverting back to 2.3.3, doesn't this warrant some kind of reply? Someone to alay our fears about never getting full functionality of WP back?!

    Does anyone know of an email address/ way of actually "talking" to someone "important"?

  14. Matt Hill
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    I agree, it's rather frustrating. It would be nice to get at least some kind of notice that we are being listened to: these problems in 2.5 aren't just going to disappear and the problems and changes are making life much more difficult for those of us using WordPress in any great depth.

    I'm convinced that this upgrade was aimed at more casual bloggers as long term WP users seem to have had a lot of control taken away.

    WP might be free, but we are still 'customers'. Any company should know that if you ignore your existing customers when they tell you there's something wrong with your product, you risk losing them forever.

  15. lelion
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    gambit37: I agree, it's rather frustrating. It would be nice to get at least some kind of notice that we are being listened to: these problems in 2.5 aren't just going to disappear and the problems and changes are making life much more difficult for those of us using WordPress in any great depth.

    I'm convinced that this upgrade was aimed at more casual bloggers as long term WP users seem to have had a lot of control taken away.

    WP might be free, but we are still 'customers'.

    Well, WordPress *is* free. I can't blame anyone at WordPress, because they do this for free, they develop WP for free.

    But I agree with you: The 2.5 is aimed for first-time bloggers, thus the decision to move almost everything to the bottom of the page, below the text area...

    On the other hand, what about people who use and know WP for more than a year or two? The way things were in the 'Write Post' and 'Write Page' sections were almost perfect -- all important info, related to the post/page you edit, to the right; and to the left, title and text area; below -- Save & Publish buttons. Items in the sidebar were expandable/collapsible, and drag-n-droppable, and settings were remembered in the browser. Now settings are remember for the user (no matter where he/she logs in - which is great!), but drag and drop is gone (for now), and everything is in the left column, below the textarea, and I catch myself scrolling up and down all the time:-(

    OK, what about make two options:

    1) WP 2.5 style: everything at the bottom of page (categories, tags, etc.) - for new users.

    2) WP 2.3 style: as in WP, sidebar with the panels for categories, etc., and...

    ...this setting to be set in the new 'Settings' section of WP?...

    Thus, maybe everyone could be happy...? :-)

  16. Samuel Wood (Otto)
    Tech Ninja
    Posted 6 years ago #

    It's still annoying me beyond belief that none of our problems are getting "noticed" or at least commented-on by those In The Know.

    Well, prepare to continue to be annoyed then...

    WordPress developers generally don't comment in these forums, as a rule. They're too busy developing. If you want a say in the code development, then login to the bug tracker and make your comments there. Submit patches to the code. Whatever.

    But really, please, stop complaining about it here. These are support forums, for people with actual problems. Not liking the layout is an opinion, not a problem. And this is really not the proper place to vent opinions or to suggest changes to WordPress.

    And hey, I agree with you about the Write screens. That doesn't change the fact that complaining about it here is ultimately pointless. The best way to get it fixed is to fix it yourself and then submit a patch. Failing that, join the various discussion areas that are not geared towards support only.

  17. lelion
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    Well, prepare to continue to be annoyed then...

    WordPress developers generally don't comment in these forums, as a rule. They're too busy developing. If you want a say in the code development, then login to the bug tracker and make your comments there. Submit patches to the code. Whatever.

    But really, please, stop complaining about it here. These are support forums, for people with actual problems. Not liking the layout is an opinion, not a problem. And this is really not the proper place to vent opinions or to suggest changes to WordPress.

    And hey, I agree with you about the Write screens. That doesn't change the fact that complaining about it here is ultimately pointless. The best way to get it fixed is to fix it yourself and then submit a patch. Failing that, join the various discussion areas that are not geared towards support only.

    Hi, Otto42!

    Nice to hear from you! :-)

    1) There is a ticket on this topic already:
    http://trac.wordpress.org/ticket/6635

    2) I am no PHP guru, I can't submit a patch. If I was such a guru, I would've submitted a patch long ago! :-)

    3) ...But I am long-time WordPress user. So I know that in WP 2.3.3 the 'Write' section was fine, and since 'Happy Cog' changed the design, it's no longer so usable, accessible and good:) I also see lots of other long-time WP users, which do not like this design decision. Not all of them are coders or designers, they can use the software, they can know if it does the job easily for them, or not. And I guess, this is the reason they 'complain' here, instead of writing a patch:)

    4) OK, so the best way to change things is: submit a ticket (done), suggest a patch (who can do it?), discuss in the mailing lists (what's wrong with discussing here?).

    In a word, should we sort of fight to have again the nice functionality, which all of us had in 2.3.3, 'Write' Section?

    As a designer, I would have written an Admin Theme, which would make WP 's Write section look like in 2.3.3, but, unfortunately, this is not possible, unless changing the html/php code... :(

    Please, don't take this personally! I think, a lot of wp users saw the forum as an easy way to express their opinion on WP 2.5 Write section interface... Besides, this is not only 'Support' section, but also 'Requests and Feedback' - aren't we talking expressly about a request ('bring to the sidebar most of the panels in the Write section!') and feedback ('a lot of WP users do not like the new interface in the write section!')? ;-)

    Cheers, and peace!

    --Michel
    (www.optimiced.com)

    PS If you think the Write section could be optionally 'fixed' using a plugin, which will change parts of the css/html code, so panels can get back to the sidebar, *without* touching core files, please, point me in the right direction! I would gladly at least try to do this, if I can't do much else... Thx:)

  18. Samuel Wood (Otto)
    Tech Ninja
    Posted 6 years ago #

    2) I am no PHP guru, I can't submit a patch. If I was such a guru, I would've submitted a patch long ago! :-)

    I do understand that, which is why I suggested taking the discussion elsewhere as well.

    discuss in the mailing lists (what's wrong with discussing here?).

    Two main things are wrong with discussing it here:

    1) This is a support forum where people who are having problems with their setups come to try to find fixes. Having discussions like these here add to the general clutter. This makes it harder for people to find the answers they need as well as making it harder for people who are trying to help others with their questions from finding the questions that they can answer.

    2) It won't help. Like I said, the main developers don't generally read these forums. So... why discuss the problem in a place that the main people who can remedy the problem won't see it? On the other hand, the devs do read the mailing lists. Really.

    That's all I'm trying to say. Not trying to shut down the discussion, just trying to suggest that you take it somewhere where it will actually be useful and help things.

  19. lelion
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    OK, I'll try to join a mailing list or two, if I have a chance to improve things by doing this:-)

    I know that you're not trying to shut down the discussion, but I am also sure that you know there are problems with the new interface in WP 2.5 and some of the design decisions - like moving stuff from the sidebar to the bottom of the Write page (this topic is mentioned not only in this mega-thread, but in countless others small threads around!); the accessibility issue a blind user mentioned (come on! Jeffrey Zeldman makes WP 2.5 more inaccessible than 2.3?); and others. Developers do not read this, OK, but maybe you (or someone else?) could at least hint the serious issues mentioned in this (these) discussions?

    I believe also, people do seek support here -- not all are coders or are going to discuss technical topics in the lists -- but they can say "Hey, I have problems, I must scroll a lot more in 2.5 than in 2.3.3, what's wrong, can someone help?", so this is the reason now WP Support is 'flooded' with so much 'I don't like the new interface!' stuff :-)

    Also, I do not believe that a new major WP version should create a wave of complaints! Actually, quite the opposite! :-)

    I was first using WP 2.0.5 and I was very happy with it. I then upgraded to 2.1.x. I was happy with it, too. Then, I upgraded to 2.2.x. The same. And finally, I was using WP 2.3.3, and was quite happy with the Write page and all of my WP options as a user.

    Now, I upgraded to 2.5, and I see that some of the main tasks which I used to perform almost daily (write a post, or write a page; edit a comment or post; etc.) take much longer time, because there's something wrong in the design of 2.5! So, I went to the Forums and saw that lots of other people are complaining about the same... So I am not alone, and this is not a coincidence, or just fancy... Write a new post/page in 2.3.3 was much better... or all of us are mistaken, for sure:)

    So, enough of my ranting around; I hope I will be able to contribute to a better WP through my modest HTML/CSS skills, if I can. Going check the lists now:)

    Finally, let me tell you, that I do appreciate all of the work done by people contributing to this great project! And I believe, if people didn't want to see a better and more usable and greater-than-ever WP, they would not have bothered to come here and say what they have to say on the new Admin back-end! ;-)

    Cheers, Michel

  20. Samuel Wood (Otto)
    Tech Ninja
    Posted 6 years ago #

    Also, I do not believe that a new major WP version should create a wave of complaints!

    Change always brings complaints. Always.

    On the whole, I like the new interface. I dislike specific things about it. The widgets screen is a huge step backwards, the fixed width style on the write page sucks, having to scroll for categories and such is stupid when there's all this sidebar space available, etc.

    But still, arguing here won't help, is my point. Argue it where it will help.

  21. lelion
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    Change always brings complaints. Always.

    On the whole, I like the new interface. I dislike specific things about it. The widgets screen is a huge step backwards, the fixed width style on the write page sucks, having to scroll for categories and such is stupid when there's all this sidebar space available, etc.

    But still, arguing here won't help, is my point. Argue it where it will help.

    You've convinced me. I hope till the end of this week I'll be arguing for the things I and you do not like about the new interface, in the lists;-)

    Cheers, and thanks for all! (going to bed now, it's quite late now...)

    --M.

  22. Sapphire
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    Not to be pedantic, but why is this called the "requests and feedback" forum if no one in a position to honor requests or implement feedback reads it? Every other developer forum I visit DOES have sections for people to tell developers what they think.

    Maybe the name should be changed to "Users helping each other" or something, because I think it was completely logical that we all assumed this the "requests and feedback" forum was the place where we should give feedback and make requests. :)

  23. Matt Hill
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    1) This is a support forum where people who are having problems with their setups come to try to find fixes.

    No it isn't. This PARTICULAR forum is for Requests and Feedback. Know how I know this? Well, see, there's this little title thing...

    2) It won't help. Like I said, the main developers don't generally read these forums. So... why discuss the problem in a place that the main people who can remedy the problem won't see it? On the other hand, the devs do read the mailing lists. Really.

    WTF? This is the Requests and Feedback forum! It even says as it's by line: "Feature requests; criticism." As pointed out by Sapphire above, it's entirely reasonable to expect us to use it to post... requests and feedback! Well, duh.

    If this isn't the place to give feedback, make requests or criticise, then you might as well just label it "Random shit no-one at WP cares about" or even easier, delete the whole forum. Excuse my language, but this just makes me mad. Seems to be a case of the left hand not knowing what the right is doing.

    So if this Requests and Feedback forum isn't actually read by anyone who's anyone, what exactly is it for?

  24. colombo79
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    i subscribe to gambit37's words.. but if WP devs really ignore this precious resource,

    1) why not simply erase this feedback aka "feature request" category?

    2) where is it exactly the best place to contribute into making WP an even better tool?

  25. jabecker
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    I'm speechless.

    So this forum is as useless as the kvetch form?

    Do the developers look at the Ideas that are posted in the Extend area? Or are those just there so we can feel better because we voted?

  26. whooami
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    hmm.. I have to admit -- given the topic, it would seem this is well placed. Not exactly something trivial either. I vote for more "complaining"!!

    ** Note that I dont think these are really "complaints", they are well meaning, "this sucks".

  27. faidonas
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    I switched from Blogger to WP. A slow learning curve in the begining, however better choice of templates, more control, much better overall, bought a template, built a site from scratch, stabilized plugins, techically speaking things were becoming smoother.I spent an enormous amount of time, on the technical side as opposed to the thing that attracted me to that experience in the first place: Publishng/Blogging. But I have accepted that, being new in the game.

    I find that 2.5 takes me back again. The backend is ergonomically designed from a programmer's perspective and not from a blogger's perspective. The toolset should be able to support the blogger "compose" better blogs, easier, faster. That's the objective. I think 2.5 just missed that point. Half the plugins do not work, I cannot insert images,or media files, i cannot check traffic, half my posts lead to, what is it now 403 or 404 god knows what, things have been moved around for no apparrent reason...At the same time 2.5 incorporates so many changes. While I am reading the comments in the support group and people talk about changing this code or that code, backslashes and phps as opposed to traffic of readers and content, I understand there are a lot of frustrating bloggers like me... How do I go back to 2.3.3?

  28. vintagepretty
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    Not to be pedantic, but why is this called the "requests and feedback" forum if no one in a position to honor requests or implement feedback reads it? Every other developer forum I visit DOES have sections for people to tell developers what they think.

    Maybe the name should be changed to "Users helping each other" or something, because I think it was completely logical that we all assumed this the "requests and feedback" forum was the place where we should give feedback and make requests. :)

    I completely agree with you Sapphire and all the other readers. Not everyone on this forum knows how to use PHP or CSS - some of us are **just bloggers** who are having to deal with a new system that no longer works in a way that is as functional as it used to.

    This particular area of the forum is called "Requests and Feedback" and should be a place where devs read the comments, surely.

    And yes, it is a free bit of software, but programmers are told to make programs that people want to use, not counter-intuitive, difficult-to-use ones.

    When it comes to complaints, criticisms and bugs, I've found it rather difficult to find ways of sending my thoughts to WP. I have Kvetch'd, but I can't leave a TRAC ticket when another has already been left by someone else on the same matter.

    I've used 2.5 for the last couple of weeks now and I'm finding it's taken the joy out of blogging with this bit of software. If I knew there was something better, other than Blogger out there, I would already have changed over by now until WP has changed their GUI.

  29. Samuel Wood (Otto)
    Tech Ninja
    Posted 6 years ago #

    This particular area of the forum is called "Requests and Feedback" and should be a place where devs read the comments, surely.

    Well, it's not. You're just going to have to cope with that fact.

    And I'm not going to argue "should be's" with any of you. You're free to complain all you like. Won't do a bit of good, but feel free to be continue to do completely useless things in here if that's your choice.

    This whole forum is a user-to-user forum. Users helping users. That's it. This is not developers listening to users. This is not developers arguing with users. This whole support forum, all of it, is user-to-user.

    I'm just stating the facts as they are. You can work within those facts and accomplish things, or you can ignore them and accomplish nothing. Your call.

    but if WP devs really ignore this precious resource,

    I can't speak for all of them, obviously, but I know several who feel that this forum is completely useless because of all the threads like these: nothing but worthless complaining. Whether those complaints are justified or not is not the point. When you're complaining about free software, then it's basically a slap in the face to the developer who coded it. He gives you something for free and all you can do is whine about it?

    Constructive criticism is welcomed. People saying "this sucks" usually get ignored.

    And yes, it is a free bit of software, but programmers are told to make programs that people want to use, not counter-intuitive, difficult-to-use ones.

    That sort of thing is what I'm talking about. It is non-constructive and non-helpful. "counter-intuitive, difficult-to-use" is your opinion only, not a fact. Everything you say after that statement is highly likely to be ignored.

    Also, developers of free software make software *they* want to use. They're beholden to nobody but themselves. Their attitude tends to be more along the lines of "If you don't like the software, then don't use it", because hey, maybe they didn't write it for you.

    When it comes to complaints, criticisms and bugs, I've found it rather difficult to find ways of sending my thoughts to WP.

    If your thoughts are of the same quality as those you have demonstrated in this thread, then probably they're not interested in them in the first place.

    However, if you have some more constructive and less whiny thoughts, then I've already posted two other ways to communicate them to the people who would be inclined to listen. And just because something is on trac already doesn't mean you can't put in your two cents, especially if you have an idea for a change that would advance the discussion in question.

    Because that is constructive, ideas building on other ideas. Mere complaints of "I liked it the old way" will likely simply get you ignored. Say a better way to do it instead. Back up your idea with facts and other ideas.

    But if you cannot be bothered to be constructive, then just go away instead.

  30. Matt Hill
    Member
    Posted 6 years ago #

    I'm rather surprised by the tone of this response from a moderator. You are a voice for WordPress and you've done no favours for the organisation with your reply.

    I thought open source software was made by the people, for the people? Your response suggests otherwise which leaves me rather confused.

    I completely disagree that criticising free software is a slap in the face to the developers. You make it sound as if they are under duress. Any developer that I know producing software, free or otherwise, wants to make it the best it possibly can be and you simply can't do that if you ignore valid constructive criticsim for your users.

    I do agree that whining is pointless; constructive criticism on the other hand is valuable as you rightly point out. There are plenty of people doing just that right here because they thought it was a place to be heard. It comes as a blow to discover we've been putting our efforts into a pointless activity, through no fault of our own.

    You state that you won't argue "should be's" but that is simply a cop out. It's NOT CLEAR that this whole forum is user-to-user as you point out and it's entirely reasonable for us to complain about that and expect something to be done, especially since the "Requests and Feedback" forum is taglined "Feature requests; criticism". What else are we supposed to think? Simply saying "That's the way it is" is not helpful. Why not take our issue to somebody who can actually change it and tell them that the Feedback forum is misleading and needs improving?

    If what you say is true about this area being user-to-user only, then it would make more sense if the support forum start page made it clear in the very first paragraph of the page, and offer a link to the other avenues of feedback if someone wants to offer feedback to the WordPress devs. Then the Requests and Feedback forum should be renamed or better still, made a separate place on the site where it WILL be read by the developers.

    The other avenues you mention are currently pretty well hidden and not easy for someone to find. Why is WordPress so keen on making it hard for people to voice their criticisims? This is open source software, not some global monopoly. You should be ENCOURAGING us to contribute, and in an open way, not through arcanely labelled systems hidden in the depths of the site.

    If WordPress wants to be the best, it's got to stop treating its serious users like this and start listening. We're not morons as you seem to be suggesting. If you guys doesn't listen, you'll just go down the tubes as everyone jumps ship to find something better, in a community where people actually feel cared about.

    You know, despite what you might think, we love the software; why do you think we get so vocal about things that don't work so well? Because we want to help make it even better! What's wrong with that?

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